I’m Jason Connolly and welcome to the career success podcast. In this thought provoking series, we will dig deep to know what it takes to reach the top in your chosen industry. Every week. We conduct interviews and lead the way in conversation speaking to the biggest names in the world of business.
What makes that person successful and what actually defines success to them will gain valuable insights as we go through this journey. Talking about their business success will also talk about what lessons have been learned. Find out how to overcome. Obstacles and challenges and learn from the best on how to become a successful business leader and how to get your business to the top will also cover what diversity in the workforce means. This podcast for me is all about showcasing what makes someone successful. I’m absolutely delighted to be joined this week by Sarah Goulbourne. Born Sarah is an award winning entrepreneur Gunnercooke, Solicitors co-founder, coach and mentor to professionals and board members gonna cook was Co founded in 2010 is. Ann is now one of the UK’s fastest growing law firms. It’s been a really busy few years for Sarah in 2019, the year after being named law firm of the year at the Law Society Excellence Awards. Gunnercooke was also given the overall business culture achievement. Gold Awards at the business culture awards. The firm has also been shortlisted for two national Business Awards. Gonna Cook has also received an absolute raft of PR and has been in the media for their innovation and the way they work. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast today. It’s a pleasure Jason pleasure so to anyone that doesn’t know, gonna Kirk or perhaps isn’t in the legal industry. Just give us an overview of Gunnercooke ’cause it is an unusual law firm. In some senses, yes, OK, well Gunnercooke is actually a business. It’s a business that happens to sell legal services. So for any of you business owners out there or business people, we very much set set this up as a business. And So what are lawyers do? Is they come in and they share their fees with us, so they bring in their clients. They are very free to work with their clients how they wish they they agree pricing between them. So it’s a very commercial arrangement and then the lawyers share the fees with us and we help them with all the back office services that they need as lawyers. And that’s how the model works and we’ve now got nearly 300 lawyers in the business across the UK and we’re about to go. And open our first international office in Europe. Congratulations. Where is that office? That’s going to be in Berlin in Germany, how exciting. So to anyone but isn’t necessarily from the law. I think one of the things that were kind of really putting it crosses. This isn’t a usual law firm model. Usual law firm model might be an LLP partners at the top have got equity and then everyone under there is employed. Everyone who comes into Gonna. Kirk is self employed. That’s right, So what they’re doing is running their own business, and that’s the exciting bit. So as you join Gonna Cook, you leave behind. Just being a lawyer, and you very much become a business person. So you’re running your own little company. You’re the director and shareholder of that, and you’re responsible for your tax and your vieti. And if you take on staff you’re responsible for them too. But we really do work on supporting those lawyers become business people. Bye bye brilliant coaching program and I qualified as an executive coach. Probably about four or five years ago now I went to Henley to the Business School there, and we’ve now got a brilliant team of coaches that help our lawyers become fantastic business. People will talk about that in a moment, ’cause That’s really interesting in itself, but lawyers are risk averse people. You wouldn’t associate a lawyer going out there and becoming a business owner necessarily. How do people tend to arrive at you and go on that journey and come to be in a place where they think about? Actually, I want to go against. You know next maybe the safety net of annual leave. Having a holiday having all the benefits that you associate with a salary position, how do they get to that place and make that transition transition over to come into? Gonna cook? I think originally when we set up 10 years ago it was mainly senior lawyers that were attracted to this because. They work their way up the traditional law firm ladder. They’ve got to be partner and they recognise that perhaps they still wanted some control and freedom over what they were doing. And if you don’t know a lot about traditional law firms, what there is in there is is quite a rigid structure, not a lot of space for people to be free to run their practices, how they wish or work with clients, how they wish, or even price with clients how they wish. So it gives lawyers, senior lawyers, a lot of freedom and control and autonomy on how they want to run their their work life and their home life to what’s interesting. In the last few years. Is that many more lawyers are more junior stage in their career? Also want to join us because I think people are recognising that they works always going to be there. But what you have to do in business now is find that balance between your work and and your home life and all the other things you want to achieve. And we’re all going to work and live so much longer now ’cause we’re all so much healthier that people are looking for a different way of working. I think that’s right, and I think legal as an industry. Obviously I work in the sector and I do. Legal recruitment is what I’m known for, but I think it’s legal. Is a sector that is kind of behind on the Times and it’s quite draconian compared to other industries. You know, this might be quite a new concept out there to a lot of different industry sectors, but at the time you started going to back in 2010, this was quite an innovative idea. It wasn’t it. Oh yeah, I mean we were seen, as you know, we were described as a challenge, a law firm and disruptive in the legal sector. And to an extent we still seen as that today. But the whole world changing. I mean, what’s changed is technology has allowed us all to operate our businesses in different ways and many of the people listening here will be used to running their businesses in the cloud. Not having a server in their office anymore. And this is the way that the world is going. So adopting things like cloud technology and early stage allowed or lawyers to work from anywhere in the world and isn’t often even aware that the lawyers not in the UK. So we have lawyers that live in South Africa in France, Spain. Italy, Israel, all practicing law with their clients delivering great service but from wherever they want. So it’s we’ve been obviously through this time recently with Covid, and I think we’ve all become no one. You have a lot of people didn’t even know what zoom was before the pandemic started, but it sounds like you’ve been kind of kind of adopting this technology in this way of communicating with people way before you know we reached the pandemics. It wasn’t quite as it being quite a seamless transition for you over the last few months. I think, yeah, operation it has. I mean we had to ask or back office team who relatively junior people at early stages in their career to all work from home. Obviously during lockdown and that that stuff for young people, you know, often you’re in a house share or a flat share. You’ve got quite small amount of space between you all. You might not have a garden and I think those few months must have been. You know, they are really shown to have been tough, but I suppose. Being aware of that and us putting in place lots more meetings on teams, lots of video calls. Making sure people feel supported was relatively easy because all our lawyers were definitely used to working from home already, and in fact it’s it’s a prerequisite of joining. Gonna Cook that you are set up with the Home Office so that wasn’t too difficult. But what I do think in this strange time we’ve had this year that’s really important to realize is that you can’t run. Your whole business just on zoom calls and team calls where possible. You have to be able to bring people together in some way and there has to be some human connection because you do lose something over screens. You just do. You lose that sense of rapport and closeness. I think as a person I’m all about energy and how I kind of feel with people. And I find that when I’m over you know whether it be the phone or zoom. I just don’t get that same feeling that I get. But I do when I’m sort of Sat opposite someone, I can see the whites of their eyes. Some. I think you’re right, something does get lost in that obviously we spoke about Gonna Cook from the inside of what it’s like to be a lawyer. You know the fact your innovative, the fact it is a different working model. People are coming to you, but I’m a client from the outside looking in. What’s different about gonna cook compared to any other law firm? If I’m a client, I think from a client perspective what you get with the lawyer that you’re dealing with is is a senior. Business person actually who’s prepared to listen and spend time with you in a way that you’re not worried that it’s on the Clock, so there is never a need to worry from a client perspective, though, the clocks ticking and how much is this cool going to cost me? Or how much is this meeting? Because the way our lawyers priced themselves, they can give the clients lots of certainty, and I think that’s huge. That’s a huge change for clients because one of the worries about buying services from a lawyer’s always been whole God. You know how much is this going to cost me? Whether it’s your divorce or your house purchase or selling your business, and I think we’ve gonna cook, the lawyers can have a very upfront, transparent conversation about pricing and take that worry away from the client. And I think that’s hugely powerful if you’re an FD running a business. Jason, you want to know how much each each expense is going to is going to cost you in a year, and legal is one of those you do. You don’t want to feel every time you pick up the phone to your lawyer, that’s it. That’s another rack on the bill, especially when sometimes going through a legal process of any kind. Can be stressful. You know you want to leave. It takes that away. What one statistic I’ve got in front of me is of your lawyers have worked in house and to people who don’t necessarily know what that means. That’s a lawyer who’s actually worked in a company, either as a legal counsel or general counsel. So that’s quite an unusual statistic to find. You know a lot of in-house lawyers have come back to private practice, ’cause sometimes it’s it’s a career defining move. When you make that move away. So that’s quite unusual statistic. Yeah, I mean, what a lot of our lawyers do. Is effectively act as a part time in-house lawyer for their client, because of course in gonna cook their time is free for them to use so they can go and say to a client. Why don’t I come into your team and work your office one day week? Why don’t I come in couple of days a month and spend time with the team doing some training with them so they become the lawyer becomes part of the client’s team and that’s very, very powerful the client then. Feels that the lawyer really understands where their business is going and what they’re doing and what challenges they’re facing. And of course, from a lawyer’s point of view, they’re getting really close to that client and understanding that client. So it’s very powerful to be able to do that, and we do encourage people to do that all the time. You know you can do that on a day rate. You can do it on a monthly retainer, and for some businesses they couldn’t afford to lawyer all the time on the payroll, but having a lawyer part time you know. In their business is very, very useful, specially if you maybe a medium to large sized business and you’ve got lots of projects ongoing. I think when people think of a lawyer they always think of someone who’s very straight laced someone that’s going to, you know, just advise them on risks and problems. But I think these are changing their becoming more more like a business advisors, business coaches. That whole client lawyer relationship is changing. Would you say so? Definitely and in what we talk about a lot in our business. Is being a trusted advisor an it’s about saying to sum delight you so you’re a CEO with with a fast growing ambitious business and it’s about you trusting somebody like me to say, look, Sarah, I’ve got this problem. This problem. I know you’re an employment lawyer, but my problem today is around my intellectual property or selling this part of the business and trusting me to go away and find the right people to help you so, so not knowing that. I’m not going to pretend I can do it all that you trust me to take it away and solve your problems. And it’s that problem solving. Part of being a lawyer that I think clients like you were kind of reaching out for and saying This is what I want. But being part of the team, as you say, as a business advisor, I think so go back in time, then your journey as a lawyer. What was that like? How did you start out? Because obviously we’ve talked about where you are now, which is absolutely incredible. You know your journey and where you currently are, but how did it all kind of start for you? Your journey into law so you know traditional story. I I, you know, work very hard at school and got some very good a levels and knew that I wanted to do something that was more on the sort of art side rather than sort of Medicine or science. So law was a very natural place for me to think about doing that and I went to UCLA and did a law degree there, and that’s a great University with a great law faculty. And then I went to law school, which is the normal path to be a solicitor. And then you get in the old days when I did it, you became an article, Clark, now you become a trainee. But in those days that you were an article, Clark and I worked in the system. Sound like your old cellular older soul. In the old days. So I worked in the city in a franchising firm which which was really interesting because it it awaken my love for commercial law. I love that rising firm. Yeah, so it’s specialized. It has some really great big brands like prenuptual, the wedding dresses and Pizza Landen Spudulike. It had some great franchise clients and they were acting for franchisors and franchisees, so it was very very commercial and I absolutely loved it and I knew then. That I always would be a corporate commercial lawyer. You know, from the first sort of couple of months of being in an office and then I built my career as an in house lawyer. So I become a general counsel. I had two children on the way, so I’ve got two boys there now 26 and and one of them is a lawyer. And yeah, I mean being in house is being part of the business. I loved it. I loved the fact that I was working with the marketing team, the PR team, the finance team. You really get to know your client. You’ve got one dedicated client. You can give all your time and energy to helping them. It’s a very rewarding career now and it’s it’s extremely popular in law now to want to go in house. I think a lot of our clients as well, wanting in-house lawyers. It’s an easy way to mitigate a lot of legal costs, and they want someone on the inside. We’ve noticed that legal counsels and general counsels. There’s a real demand for them now, and it seems about any company that has. Relatively certain sizes going down that direction was that quite a career defining moment for you when you went in house? Things that seems like that’s how this all kind of manifested in started. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I went in as a newly qualified solicitor, so I was very young to do it, but there is a real career path in house so you and you move around between sectors. So I’ve worked in the banking sector. I’ve worked in the media sector. I’ve worked in the leisure sector, but all commercial businesses have commercial needs. So what what’s interesting is you get to experience lots of different businesses as an in house lawyer, and that gives you a lot of variety. And then when I was a certain age I, I went back to Business School and I did an MBA and that’s where a lot of the ideas from Gonna Cook came and and I could say to your audience, you know if anybody’s ever thinking about. Should they do an MBA? I highly recommend it. It was. It was just so interesting for me. I’d come from a sort of legal background, quite a narrow sort of legal training. And to be with all these really creative bright people from so many different industries, it was it was absolutely amazing. I loved it and it gave me a lot of the ideas for gonna cook. What did the NBA necessarily teach you? Was it more about being in the room of entrepreneurs or was it more about how to grow a business ’cause I’ve never done one myself? It was the entrepreneur side, so I had only ever worked in large corporates, PLC’s and listed companies. Yeah I did a module. Around entrepreneurs and they actually brought some entrepreneurs in. They brought in people who had started up businesses from nothing. What was interesting is it showed you how to effectively think about scaling up a business. So when you get an idea for a business that’s great and you sort of try out and you test it. And that’s what I did, and that’s what you’re doing, Jason, in your business. It’s the scalability. Why does one business grow and thrive and go on to great things and another business doing exactly the same thing? Doesn’t get anywhere, but you know in the question, and it’s because often the entrepreneurs the founders don’t think big, they don’t think about scale. They don’t think about growth and you have to put those sort of those points down in the ground from a very early stage of your business. If you do want to grow and scale it and we my business partner and I Darrell quicker, we always knew we wanted to grow. Gonna cook. We always knew we wanted to take it international. We knew it would take. You know a long time to achieve that, but it was being really clear from day one where we wanted to be. And I do think there’s this thing about I don’t know if you’ve heard about growth mindset. It’s a great book by Carol Dweck, and have summer mentioning a few episodes ago, actually. But thinking big thinking outside the box, always pushing yourself. I mean these sort of skills. You need to keep pushing your business forward as you have done, you know. ’cause I never myself and I’ve mentioned this in some other episodes I I never did a levels. I never went to University I I think I learned a lot from the different businesses I was in, but I spent some of my time at Virgin Atlantic. Some in the place. And I do agree with what you’re saying. I think growth mindset is really important. I’m someone that I think he’s always thinking about the the massive picture down the line where I wanna be in five years time where I want to be in three years time where you want to be in 10 years time. But I think sometimes what I sometimes misses. I recently had a personality profile done about me and there’s a lot in the recruitment world now that people get inside cometric profiles. I’ve realised that I’m a big picture person, but what I’m not is a detailed person and I think that that’s been quite interesting in itself. Do you do psychometric testing where you are? Is that something that you’ve adopted? Yes, we do, so we do it for all our senior management. And actually, we ask our lawyers to not not do it as part of recruiting them, but do it to coach them to help them to make them more aware. They’re becoming a business person, so the skills they needed to be a great lawyer. Yeah, they’re still there, and that’s important, but actually you need a whole different skill set to manage running a business. And like you say, if you recognise that you’re a big picture person, what you really need to recognise is that the next person you recruit has to be that detail person. Yeah, fill that gap for you. So so the successful business owners are the ones that you always recruit. People better than yourself. I mean, we’ve always done that. If you can find somebody who’s better at marketing, then you don’t be intimidated by that. Don’t be defensive. Bring them in and let them be great at marketing in your business. It’s all about that. I think you want to surround yourself in a room of people that are better than you. You’re gonna learn from that. What I don’t want to focus on a negative, but you said that it’s that growth mindset. That’s what makes a business successful. What is it with these other businesses are focusing on there, but isn’t allowing them to grow as it? Quite simply, they’re not focusing on growth. No, I don’t believe that because I’ve been because there are many models like ours now popping up in the legal sector, but they’re not. They’re not growing at the pace we are, and I think the massive differentiator. And again, I can apply to your business because you are so different. You guys from many of the traditional legal recruiters is it’s about culture, and we’ve worked really, really hard to define our culture in our organisation and the way we behave with each other and the values we have. And I think that’s what people are buying into. They’re not buying into all your law firm and you can give me a fee share model. It’s not that it’s what gonna cooks about, it’s about things like collegiality and collaboration. And those are the things that differentiate you in a sort of crowded market. I agree it’s recruitment agencies are tenant penny and there’s lots of we’ve recently just started a new business attracting recruitment consultants who want to maybe got bags of potential. But having it realised it in a traditional working environment. And I think that you could copy a lot of things in business, but you can’t copy a culture and you know it’s one of those things that if you’ve got a not a great culture, it’s also very hard to change it. Something that you’ve gotta work on and grow and it you know it is ever evolving. So what challenges have you faced in over the years since you’ve started this? And how do you get through those? I mean, I’m a big, I’m a big fan of saying that, you know, is going to know the answers and at times you are going to get stuck in business an I think. Recognising that you’re not invincible and that and there’s a lot written about this now about leaders, true leaders being prepared to be vulnerable and being prepared to show their teams when they’re finding it tough or difficult. I think that’s really, really important, but more than that, recognising that you might need help asking for help is not a sign of weakness. It’s actually a sign that you recognise that you know you need some support in a particular area. And to help your business grow, you’re going to need to get it, and I think that’s where I found coaching. So I find coaching so powerful as a management tool. Because you are there getting help and support. So I’ve used an executive coach oh numerous times during my time growing. Gonna cook where I’ve reached out to Sunday and said look I need some help with this and it helps you off a move from being stuck. Whether it’s a problem you’ve got or a decision of a difficult decision that you’re finding it hard to make, you know coaching can be really powerful tool because by the coach listening and asking the right questions, you get to the answer yourself. And that’s that’s very powerful, because you believe in it more, because you’ve actually found the answer yourself. Young being told the answered by somebody else. There’s a lot of career coaches out there. They seem to be 10 a penny. How? If you’re a business owner and you you want to go out there and find someone, how do you find a coach looks like for you? Or how do you find one that is any good? How do you know that you’re finding some of it’s incredible? I’ll be honest, it’s like with anything in professional services, I actually believe in personal recommendation and referral, I think. Much, much stronger to go out into your network and ask some deep, you know. Do you know the right coach? And also when you are thinking about engaging the coach, I actually think you should talk to at least three, because although all the coaches, you might find a very well qualified, it will be about the personal rappl between you and a coach and an if you don’t get on and you don’t click, then you’re not going to get the most out of a coaching assignment or what’s being kind of the main things that you’ve kind of experienced or learn. Or is there. Since you been coaching ’cause it’s quite, um, I guess there’s a lot to it and I guess you I assumed that you were people who coaching people who are big board members and stuff like that, but is there anything that’s being particularly that you’ve learned since you’ve been doing this well? I think as a coach you have to be clear. What outcomes your coaches expecting out of an assignment because you’re not there. You know, waving some magic wand to get to get rid of whatever the issue is, or at the end of the day you’ve got to be very, very clear what that client, what that person wants out of the assignment, and I think you’ve got to keep referencing back to it. So for example, if somebody was engaging me for it, say six sessions as a coach over, say, say, 6 six months, you know I’d be very clear to review after halfway through. The program how’s this going for? You are the outcomes you wanted. Still the same you know business changes fast. Often you know is this still what the person needs or wants. So I think it’s about clear communication more than anything, so ask you a question about business in general. If someone was just starting up a business, perhaps they’re just thinking, but I want to go out alone now and try myself. What advice would you give to someone starting a business up from the early days? Absolutely do a very clear business plan. At no question you need a plan. You are not gonna get anywhere without some sort of plan and you can call it a strategy plan. You can call it an action plan. I don’t actually think it matters what you call it, but to have a really clear idea on your values from day one really clear idea on your focus. You know what is your passion and then to be clear about, you’re going to have a five year target or you’re going to have a 10 year target. You know what is your long term vision. What is it you want to achieve for you in that business? And then you can once you defined all those what I call really big picture things, then you can think about your marketing strategy. You can think about who you target market is and how you’re going to deliver something different. But if you don’t get those fundamental big picture questions and points answered at the start, you just not going to be clear on your decision-making when you need to make decisions because they’ve all got some reference back to that. Is it combined with my values? Is this in line with my Michael focus? Is this in line with where I want to be in five years time? Because if they’re not, then you don’t want to go with whatever the decision is that you’re being asked to make. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it’s really important, and I think also cash flow is something that people need to take into account, especially in those early days of having a business to ask advice as well. So obviously we have a lot of lawyers, people, all graduates, paralegals and people who listen to this channel. You’re really highly successful in what you do. I can’t even keep track of where you are ranked in the legal 500 now. Where are you? You’re not wearing that OK. I can’t keep track of all the awards and rankings that you’ve got. We’re in there, and it’s very important to us that we keep recruiting, you know, out of that quality pool of the sort of Top 100 law firms in the UK, because that’s how basically our lawyers that are comfortable dealing with each other and then referring clients to each other. So quality is just as important to us as quantity. OK, I guess two last things I’d like to ask you, so we’ve got a lawyer listening into this. Now that’s been working in private practice that. You know hasn’t even ever thought about this entering into their mind. Going out into the you know what might be the big scary world. And being fully responsible for their practice, what would you say to that person listening? Now I would say think about what you want out of your future career in life. Be ’cause if you’re not able to be in control of that, I think is a very intelligent, bright professional that can be very, very frustrating. And money being trapped by you know, being paid a certain salary isn’t always going to lead you to be feeling fulfilled. An worthwhile and I think it takes it, takes somebody to be brave. It takes somebody to be prepared to take a risk, but if you talk to any of our going to cut lawyers, most them would say I’ll never look back or never go back, and many of them say I wish I’d done it 10 years earlier. But the fact was we weren’t there 10 years ago, but we’re there now. And this this type of law firm is here to stay just to pull you up on what you just said there trapped. That’s interesting to turn to use. Tracked by your salary. Well, yeah, because you know. Depends when you’re freed. Well, well, I mean, I think The thing is, you can be paid a lot of money, but the pressure that comes with that is intense. So it. And it’s like any job, you know, if you know if the lawyers paid 100,000 pounds. Expected to bill at least three times out of 3 1/2 times that you know 350,000. Now you know to be doing that day in, day out, year in, year out. Will put people under pressure, but yeah, they’re getting very well paid, but it’s bit you don’t do a job. I mean you’ll know this from your recruitment business. Jason people don’t just work just for money. That money is one thing on the list, but they want to feel you know, fulfilled. They want to feel that they’re being listened to. They want to feel that their employer values them. And so is It can’t just be about a transaction, and that’s what we’re trying to offer people as an alternative in Gonna Cook money is actually we ran some statistics on this and crunch some data a little while ago. Money actually came as reason. #5 for people looking to leave and I think you know we speak to a lot of different law firms. A lot of law firms who aren’t looking at the right things find this absolutely surprising, but it’s not just about the money, it’s you know. I think I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was. Progression of feeling valued like you said or also feeling but they enjoy where they work. I think the working models changing its evolving people won’t collaboration. They want a different relationship with their employer. They won’t want to flexibility and I think that’s just going to continue to evolve and you being such an early adopter into this, your kind of way ahead of the sphere of what’s happening with a lot of law firms. I think a lot of people have only just woken up to this necessarily off the back of Covid’s. Well, I think yeah. I mean we never going back Jason as as as an economy in the UK, you know, I think we’ve fundamentally changed the way that people are going to live and work. I I really do and I think the idea that people want to go back five days a week into an office week in week out is no longer going to be an option. I think people will be expecting now to be offered a different way. Flexible working. Yeah, I agree with you. Just to ask trainee lawyer. And the paralegal we were just about to talk about it. But what advice would you give to someone just thinking about starting a career in law and thinking you know I want to go down this path? It’s extremely competitive. It’s very hard to get a training contract in a firm. What would you say to these people still as early as you can to think about how you can be seen to be different. So whether it’s that you’re interested in a particular sector, like the gaming sector or the fashion sector or retail sector. Find something that you can become very knowledgeable about as early as possible, because that that will show that you’re different an I think having confidence to speak up with ideas, I mean they might be wrong, but it doesn’t matter. It shows that you’re thinking, and it shows that you’re questioning, and it shows that you’re open. So I think legal training is getting better that people are recognising that you can’t just be a technically good lawyer anymore. You’re not going to make it on just being a technically good lawyer. You’ve got to have the other personality traits around you of good communication, being tenacious, being resilient, you can’t just sit there and just be a technically good lawyer. That’s not going to be enough anymore. It’s not. You need to be someone that’s dynamic and you need to be. I think the word we hear all the time, that kind of Golden phrases business develop. You’ve gotta be someone that can build relationships and someone, but you know ultimately can market yourself. Ebay for young lawyer. You’ve got to read the papers. You’ve gotta read the Times in the FT. You could read the Economist God. I know the market around you. Yeah, yeah, you gotta understand your clients business and where it sits in it sector. You know if I was going to see a new client, the first thing I do is look on their website, look at their PR announcements, look at their latest reporting account and see what they’re saying about their business. I don’t. I don’t think lots of young lawyers even think like that, and they should because there will be so much more knowledgeable when they get in. Client meeting well. I know that for business he even from recruitment. I think that’s why we’re so ahead of the curve. I’m just naturally curious when it comes to the world around me and I think sometimes I spend too much time reading the news. But can you have too much knowledge? I guess that’s the question. So asking what’s next for you? And what’s next for going to cook? You mentioned that you’ve got this office opening up in Europe. What does the next few years look like for you, Sarah? Well, I’ve got so many roles. I mean, obviously I’m on the board of Gonna Cook and I love that strategic. Roll that I play. I love talking to lawyers as you know, so I’ve got this roll around. Recruitment in, Gonna Cook and its growth so I’m loving that and coaching the lawyers that are with us. That’s another piece for me. You areas for me are also getting into the charitable sector an helping using some of my time to help charities. So going to cook, set up a foundation where we offer peer to peer support to CEOs. A small charities. So I look after 7 seven charities. And I’ve also enrolled to be a mentor for a young person at school. It’s called career ready and going to cook a supporting that charity. So you know, bringing on young people and giving them chances and opportunities to see what a career in law is like is something that I’m going to really develop over the next few years. Fabulous thank you so much for joining me on this episode today. Anyone who’d like more information about Sarah or gonna cook that can be found at Gonna Cook. Dot com, Thanks for joining me this week. It’s been great to talk to you Sarah and I wish you well in all your endeavours, moving forwards, feeling pleasure. Jason, thank you very much indeed.