Hello and welcome to the Career Success podcast, I’m Jason Connolly. If you’re a regular listener, it’s great to have you back, but if you’re new, welcome to the show. In this series, everyone we speak to the biggest names in business all across the globe. We talk about their career stories, the lessons, learn how they overcome challenges, and what success habits they practice. Practical advice to help you in your career if you have a passion for business, then this is the podcast for you.

In this episode I’m delighted to be joined by John Saunders from just outside of Washington DC in the US. John spent more than two decades as a Wall Street senior vice president, sales team leader and award-winning sales executive. John followed his passion for helping others grow and founded a coaching and consultancy company, Forward Advisory Solutions. John is a member of the Georgetown University MBA Alumni Advisory Council. A regular contributor to the MBA mentorship program and an active Angel investor, John is also the author of the Optimizer Building and leading a team of serial innovators. John thanks. Joining me on this episode, Jason Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me now. I’ve got a lot of questions, but before we kind of delve into all things about your career, tell us about you. ’cause two years as a Wall Street senior vice president. That’s a long time. But tell us give us a whistle. Stop tour of your career. John sure you know I grew up in a household to give a second of the long way long way back, you know, we just always worked. I had as a paperboy. I delivered the local newspaper and I was a kid and just sort of kept doing that and always trying to work hard and. My parents were always into investing so they always they invested for me when I was very young and always kind of kept that in front of me. So when I graduated from college undergrad, I thought boy I really want to work in this industry. It was fascinating to me and I was lucky enough to land a job in in Wall Street right out of college, moved from where I grew up in Wisconsin and the Midwest to New York City. And, you know, came in there. I’ll say with my original passion which was just try to work harder as you as you always as I kind of learned growing up and after some. Period of time a number of promotions. I realised you know you have to sort of add a bit more to this. Can’t just work harder all the time. Have to work smarter and stayed in that track. I went and got a couple of designations, professional designations, MBA and you know at the end after 23 years found myself as Senior Vice President running a team with about a $4 billion sales goal. That’s a there’s a snapshot of it. Yeah, that’s definitely a whistle. Stop church and I’m not going to deny that he sounded to me when you first kind of get sort of talked through your education. It sounded to me like maybe you didn’t come from that kind of. Background where other people have gone down that path before, am I reading in between lines in in terms of education, yes, you know, my father was the first he grew up in a farm uh-huh he was the first of 11 kids to go to school and didn’t finish and undergrad until he was in his 40s. So most of you know my young life he you know didn’t have a college degree and he got it when he’s maybe 45 or something like this. My mom did but yeah it was it. My brother and sister. I was youngest of three. Both went to college as well, but it’s certainly part of our lives but. You know my dad had to change his life to make that happen. Wow, and well, what was it that kind of appealed to you about Wall Street? How did you find yourself in that setting? I’m not getting you when I say my parents made an investment for me when I was about three years old. He did it for all their children, put $1000 in a large cap mutual fund and just let it ride. And for at about 21 around my college graduation, my dad called me up one day and he said, hey, you know, what’s your Social Security number? He said I’m going to transfer some money at your name and I said, what are you talking about? And he transferred this account to me and. It was probably worth $25,000 at the time, and I’ll never forget him saying so. I was 2122. why you giving me this money. I could do something crazy with it, got vacation and buy a car. You know, senior in college I think. And he said money is about being able to make good choices and having options, and he said I want you to be able to make better choices and have some options that I’ll never forget that advice and I think honestly right then and there. I was really hit me that I want to be in this business, be around money and help other people. With their investing, yeah, and it’s notoriously difficult to get get into Wall Street and to try and get that first break. And did you kind of find that quite difficult to get into a Wall Street, as it were? You know, it’s one of those things where you are absolutely right. It’s they often say it’s the hardest place to get into in the hardest to get out of. This one way of someone who’s trained it to me I thought was pretty spot on and so you know, I honestly I was a Midwest kid. You know I grew up. Yeah, so I was interviewing for jobs in Chicago, Minneapolis, sort of big cities in the Midwest and financial services. And as I continue to search and really pound the pavement on trying to get out trying to get into the industry, some family friends said, hey, I’ve got a friend or two on Wall Street. Maybe I could let you talk to them. And I used to get up. This one gentleman was kind enough to take. I think it was a bi weekly call with me and he was in New York. He said I’ll talk to you at 7:00 in the morning, which was six in the morning where I was. And as a college kid 6 in the morning is, you know, pretty early, at least for my life. And I talked to this guy every other Friday for months, and he set me up and I think he just appreciated the tenacity of someone who’s willing to get up at 5:30 morning to talk to him to get ready. And so he set me up with a bunch of interviews with different companies and that really helped. And then a good friend of mine was able to do the same and just through kind of networking and little tenacity, I was able to get my foot in the door as a sales assistant for a team back in 96. How was it that you kind of was you kind of the the portraits of people that kind of are in Wall Street? Or is there kind of a typical carbon copy of the typical Wall Street broker? You know they tend to come from very exclusive schools. You know, Ivy schools things like this. I was not I. I went to a state school and University of Wisconsin for undergrad. And you know, I think I think they appreciated my tenacity and my friend that referred me in had been there a year or so and built a good track record of, you know, kind of hard working and this kind of thing and they appreciated him. And when he referred me in they were happy to talk to me and I don’t know six interviews later they offered me a job which was fantastic. Did you have a soul? Tend to find that because you’d. Gone to a different college and university and you’d come from a different place to a lot of people that you know that worked. Your disadvantage over? Or does your tenacity so strong that you just powered through that unblinkered you know? Interestingly, Jason, a lot of people sort of treated me like this, you know, sort of farm boy from the Midwest and figured I had cows in my yard and this kind of thing and it actually worked in my favor because I was constantly underestimated. And you know, when you powered on through them, yeah, and they kind of thought that this simpleton from the Midwest is never going to do anything here and. You know, Fast forward 234 was getting promoted past many of my peers at a faster rate ’cause I was showing up earlier, staying later. Constantly trying to figure out you know how else can I gain more responsibility here and I’ve always chased responsibility. And you know, the money always followed and I never chased the money. It was always about. How can I do more here and that was a pretty good strategy. When did your motivation and drive come from? Where did that come from? During those years? You know I I always played sports as a kid. I played soccer or football as you might call it. And I was just always hyper competitive and I think that was probably what they liked about me too that they saw that in me and. You know I want to get ahead and win and you know, show people I could do good things for them and do good work. And you know, as I said, early on that strategy just sort of working harder and being competitive really, really paid off. And how did you learn to sort of become a leader? Because I always think managing a team is it’s incredibly difficult. It’s not easy, and and those are skills for well. For my you know, obviously we both got different outlooks on life and have come from different places. But like you, John I I I well I grew up in a Council estate in London so my start in life was I went to one of the worst five schools in the country at the time, so I think I was also under estimated.

But what I had is so much drive and determination to get out of the situation but. You know what kind of grown up in, but that? That’s what kind of powers me through to be wrong. I grew up in a in a family of love, but you know, we we barely had any 2 pennies to rub together growing up. What’s so when you sort of become a leader and stuff like that? Where did you learn those skills from was that? Was you? ’cause I don’t know what the life on Wall Street’s like are you kind of taught that those soft skills? Or how do you develop those skills and how? Obviously you were kind of built up to go into that role, but how was it you learn how to be a successful leader? ’cause obviously this leads really nicely. Also, the book which we’ve all come to soon. Thanks, you know. Leadership was just one of those things always playing sports. I was, you know, always captain of my soccer team and it just kind of came naturally to me and I think it was just maybe not being shy and just having this extraordinary drive to want to win. And they’re trying to realise that I had to motivate those around me to, you know, I couldn’t. There’s eleven people on the field, right? Like one guy can’t do it all, and so I was just always had that mindset. Like how can I get? Those around me to help us win this game getting into, you know, getting into Wall Street. I’ve always had this mindset to sort of learn and improve, and then you know how can I help others do the same and raise those around me and that philosophy? Honestly, that’s simple. Way to put it is I could almost stop there and that’s the rest of the story, but there’s a lot more to it. Kind of when you move up the ranks in Wall Street are the hours still kind of as long as they as they are when you first entered? Is that just the lifestyle of Wall Street I you know, many times I didn’t know when the if it was morning or night. You know, like that? Well, that says it all job. That’s the answers my question. There are definitely years, especially as you’re kind of going through the ranks and you know they really put you through the wringer. If you want to get to the, you know, sort of good positions, you gotta jump through a lot of hoops to get there, and there were plenty of nights where I was driving across some state in the middle of nowhere in the US. You know, Ohio at 9:00 o’clock on a Thursday to a hotel, only to wake up at 5:00 in the morning to fly back home. And, you know, go try to see my girlfriend on the weekend or something like this. And then Monday morning back at Reagan National Airport being greeted by my first name before they saw my. Drivers license, that’s always a good sign, Jason. When the people at the airport know your name and you know you haven’t shown me your drivers license yet, wait, that normally says something John, especially if you’re entering via the back entrance rather than the front. I’ve got just got so many questions about Wall Street ’cause it’s absolutely fascinating. And do you find that kind? Of obviously I’m not gonna be rude enough John to ask your age, but I think the the decades of experience speak for themselves. Do you think that kind of when you was on Wall Street? It was kind of the the glory days of Wall Street? ’cause it’s. It must have changed an absolute load it you know in the last couple of decades in itself it was, you know, the late nine years were the getting was good for sure. The sort of low cost products, the ETF’s, the low cost trading products that are out available. Now we’re just starting to get going. So margins were still very wide business. You know, every time you brought in a dollar, you know that profit margins were near 40% and which is huge right? Compare that to say a grocery store or margins. Or two or 3% right? Or many industries that are kind of 10? You know we were high 30s forties and that has come down in the last five to 10 years and it’s accelerating. But yeah, the late 90s were the getting was pretty good for sure and it continued on it really it was probably since 08. You know the Great Recession of 08. That kind of really started to put pressure on margins and the competition got a lot more really. Took a new. Took another step forward if you will. When you became Senior Vice President, how long did it take you to get to that position? Let’s see. 96 2014. So what is that about 19 years? I guess 1819 And when you kind of got up to that level and you, you you kind of rose those ranks, what was life like kind of being at the top of a Wall Street organisation? You know, it’s interesting as you think you get to these kind of roles. You think like it’s only going to get better and you’re going to have more control. And in fact the opposite. Restrict your your time was in demand more and people wanted to talk to you and meet with you. And you had to be, you know, flight in New York all the time. At a very short notice for different meetings and things like this. So yeah, ironically, as you’d think you’d sort of with a bigger job, you’d have more control. You actually had less. John, I’ve I found that myself from my experience of growing a bit, it’s it’s. I think I had a very different view when I started to what life would be like to what it’s actually like in reality, so I can definitely understand that what was kind of the career highlight for you at your time of being a senior Vice President? It’s an interesting one. Just to put you on the spot. Yeah, I don’t know if I’ve answered that question before. I have to think about that for a second. You know, I’ll tell you this, and the realising that I could help people. Have this really big lightbulb moment go off just by asking them questions and seeing them identify you. Know I really worked **** ** problem definition not problem solution. So if a team member came to me and said hey Jason or John, I’m really stuck on this. Instead of saying hey call this person or do that, I really learned to say hey what have you tried? Why did you go that? Why did you take that approach? Has it worked out so far? What else have you tried and if you could go through that series of questions and take more of what I would call a trusted. Advisor approach, as opposed to a manager or boss approach if you will and help them. I mean, I could hear the light bulb going off even over the phone where they say if they threw those series of questions if they could identify the answer themselves, even if it was highly likely. The answer I might have given them anyway through the questions kind of guiding them there and helping them define this problem so they could run and chase a solution. That was, uh, I will call that a big highlight. And when I saw that happen and really saw people be empowered by that, that was, I knew I was onto something with that, and that was really exciting to see them grow. And, you know, run with an idea and take ownership of it. It’s a really interesting why kind of mentoring people as such to let them figure out the answers themselves as something quite powerful about that, and but funny enough I’ve got much of a similar approach when it comes to things myself, I think to give the answer doesn’t mean a lot. A lot of the time. To get someone to kind of go through that thought process can be very powerful, right? It’s kind of that you know, sort of give a man a fish he eats for a day or right teacher, mentor fish. He eats for a lifetime and I very much kind of played around with that and certainly I went to Business School and about 2015 graduate MBA and MBA program. And you know, I learned a lot through some peers in my company mentors. But also Business School taught me immense amount about this and it was pretty amazing to go through Business School while I was doing this senior Vice President role because I constantly used my own team. Is kind of my testing ground. You know? I’ve learned this new film in class and then I go and try it on my team and say this work that didn’t. What should I, you know, I try to keep pushing on and that was pretty awesome to see it really interesting. And I think this kind of leads really nicely onto the questions I want to ask about the book. The book is called as I said in the introduction, the optimizer building and leading a team of serial innovators tell us rather me read the description out. John tell us your take on kind of the book what it’s all about. What kind of motivated you as well to write. ’cause that’s no mean feat. Yeah, I’ll start with the the motivation. I think that’s an interesting place to start, which is I saw so many people over my years on Wall Street and now even as a coach that are so talented and yet their gifts lay hidden for years, sometimes forever. And what I found Jason was the key. The key link to the problem was change brings fear, and people don’t want to face the fear of oh, I tried something new. I I tried to innovate and it didn’t work and now I have to tell my friends, my boss, my spouse, whatever that. I failed right fear, there’s fear, there’s loss. There’s uncertainty all these emotional charges go along with it. So now juxtapose that against the fact that if you’re a manager or leader, your job is largely about driving change and getting your team to improve and grow, right? So there’s this huge conflict there that I don’t think gets enough attention in the world. So my whole idea was, if I can get you to think in this optimizer mindset or incremental, constant improvement mindset, months goes by and you’re going to have a lot done. If you’re every week allocating an hour or two or three to this sort of innovation mindset, making incremental change and two, it helps you overcome that emotional burden that I talked about earlier that often stifles or stalls change, and that’s really the crux of the book. How to overcome that as a manager and really enable empower your team to adopt this mindset and run with it and with the book? Was this all kind of your own learnings and what you saw around you? Or have you taken inspiration from other places? So the book is it’s a combination of my own work of a enormous amount of research I did, and probably two dozen or so interviews with people across industries from a cult winemaker Napa Valley to a luxury interior designer to a Microsoft executive, to the co-founder of The Motley Fool, a financial services company in America to a bunch of others. So I a principle of a public school system. I originally started out thinking I’ll make this book for Wall Street and I kind of went a bit adjacent to. Wall Street people and started interviewing outside of that audience. I realised these lessons aren’t Wall Street lessons, their leadership lessons, and that’s when I really started to expand my search and research and interviews. And was that kind of common when you spoke to all these different companies, is there kind of a common theme that you tend to come across that stopping companies moving forward or innovation is it? Is it a cultural issue or cultural issue, leadership issue and many times you can’t blame the leaders, they just don’t know or it’s the culture they grew up in and they haven’t sort of thought to. Or found a way to or felt safe enough to do things differently themselves on a positive note, the common themes where this was happening, where this mindset was out there. This constant innovation mindset, you know they made people feel safe, they empowered them to step out of their comfort zone and try things new and encourage them to educate themselves. And it was really cool to see that across so many different organizations, and I I appreciate we’re not going to ever unpack the whole book during this episode, but I want to try and get as much value. John had something as a possibly cap. In terms of kind of what you just mentioned about people feeling safe and people feeling empowered to kind of come out with these ideas, how do you even go about that? How do you create that space you know? Or does the whole book contain that? And we’re never going to unpack that in such a short amount of time. I I can certainly share some of the part of that story here, and it’s a big part of it is, you know, the enabling part to me is in Thai, so it’s how do you enable, empower, and sustain this mindset? That’s really the crux of the book, the enabling. Part it’s all built on trust. One of the things I found is building trust should be in your business plan. It should be on your calendar as a leader, and what I found is many people take it for granted. Hey, we pay you a lot of money, Jason, you’re going to figure it out, OK? That attitude, still, you know, it’s not. It’s not as pervasive as maybe it was five or ten years ago, but it’s still out there and more people just don’t even think about it. You work here, you know, we give you. We’ve granted you this gift of a job, and so, therefore, you’re going to just listen to me and take everything I say for granted. And I would argue that isn’t enough. You need to have personal relationships with these people. You need to enable them by getting their feedback and asking them for advice. You know, give them credit when they come up with good ideas, and be as transparent as you can. These are the building blocks. In my view, to enabling this mindset, let’s take you for an example. Jason. I mean, do you take advice from someone or that you don’t feel like you trust and has your best interests at heart? Well, no John I don’t, of course, right like you walk onto a, you know let’s say a car deal. You know car lot and you know you’re like oh I want to buy a car today and you know you might be a little suspicious of that person’s motivations. And obviously they don’t know you that well and it’s funny. ’cause trust is a very intangible thing, John. It’s how do you build the trust? I guess if we strip it back that far, because I know that I get these kind of gut feelings and these intuitions about trust. But it’s very intangible. It’s how does one manager go about? Building trust in in their team? Or is it about? You know the team realising that their intentions are, you know, are ultimately in the right place. I’ll give you an example that maybe a story might answer that question better than sort of listing things. So I constantly asked my team for feedback. Hey, how is this working out? How could we do this better? How might we operate better? What’s it like working with me? How could I be a better manager for you? What are your goals like? I was constantly asking these questions and I will tell you early on. The response to those questions is very mundane because they didn’t trust me yet. They know who’s this guy asking me. All these questions, you know? How can you tell a boss what’s it like working with him, not motivation? Right? Was he trying to get out and so the breakthrough for me was such a simple thing like the bar is lower than you think. One of my favourite data points in the book or I shouldn’t say favourite one of the most alarming was one in four employees in the US feel completely ignored by their manager. That’s it. From Gallup. And so I went to this one gentleman who’s been with the firm forever. He was new on my team. I was a peer of his for years. Now he was manager and I said we do this is it was a remote team. We were all scattered around the East Coast of the US and I said to him, you know cash we have all these conference calls. I just basically took over the conference call schedule of my predecessor which was every other week would have a call and I said to him Brian, I don’t feel like we’re getting very far with these calls. How do you think we could improve communication amongst our team and really make it more valuable? And he said to me, Jason. Something to the effect of get rid of a bunch of the calls we have too many. And I thought, well, there’s an honest answer. And so I go on the calendar and I had the whole calendar year mapped out already and I just simply took the calls that fell on a holiday and I would normally like a Monday holiday. I would just move the call to a Tuesday. I just took those which those calls and cancelled them and said instead of pushing it to Tuesday, we’re just going to get rid of it. And I got rid of maybe 15% of the calls and doing that. And then I send a note out to the team. Hey everybody, Brian had a great idea. He thinks we have too many calls, so we’re going to try this. You pilot this year. Pilot is a very powerful word and leading change ’cause it’s feels non permanent and it helps people it. Also I think it welcomes them into the journey of change. Not just saying hey Jason here’s a new thing we’re doing. Here is a pilot right different? It’s a very nuanced yeah. No it’s greatly agree with you. I think it’s a great word that was a keyword I learned involving test test meat. Makes it seem like you’re not sure on what you’re doing. Pilot sounds like you’re sure that there’s something great coming, but it’s it’s a trial. And then the trial doesn’t sound like a nice word. That sounds like it’s not here to stay. I like that word pilot. I found it to be probably one of the most powerful words I learned as a leader, and so I put the message out to the team. So I asked the guy for feedback. I took his advice. I took action with it and then I sent a note out to the team everyone. Brian had this idea. We’re going to fewer calls this year and pilot this new schedule. Fast forward, the end of the year, last call of the year and I said, hey everyone, you know we’ve been in this pilot. It’s about to end the calendar years over. Should we bring the old schedule back and not one person said it? Work not one and I thought you know it. Here’s the ironic part. If I needed to have an extra call and get a message out. Big deal. I just scheduled it and we did it, but they weren’t tethered to this every other Monday thing for the whole year. They appreciated it and after that little exercise that I just explained to you, ask for feedback take. Action give the guy credit for it. People really started to lean in, so how do you build trust? You let your actions show that they can trust you and that you’ll take ideas from them. And I’ve got a question then. John, so you kind of have a team, but maybe you think that there’s a, you know, a kind of a bad apple in the team or someone that’s you know, not going to get on board with any of these ideas, you know is your is your philosophy simply? If it can’t be changed to get rid. Or yeah, unfortunately there were people over the years that didn’t get it. And I worked with them for months and months to kind of say hey, look, this is the direction I think we need to go in. If you think I’m wrong, let’s talk about it. But this is where we’re headed and this is how I think we get there. And you I need you to be a big part of it. And because we were remote workers, you know I didn’t see them everyday. Some people thought they could get away with that for a long time, but sooner or later that catches up to you. And so there were a handful of people that you know, firing people is the worst thing to do. I mean, it’s just really nothing fun about it. But unfortunately I did have to make some changes over the years. And what’s the feedback been in the reception ’cause the books obviously been published now? Well, six months in this country according to Google, John, what’s kind of being the the reception to people food from you publishing it. And I must add on on that note, you have a tremendous amount of five star reviews from people giving beautiful feedback. Just to add that before you were before you answer. But I really appreciate that. It’s been so fun and I have to tell you, I never really thought I’d write a book. It started out as a paper, and then I showed it to a friend. He said make it why don’t you make it a series and I thought that’s interesting and put it on LinkedIn every week for a month or something. Take it to another friend who said, hey, I can help you fine tune this thing. I do some, you know he’d worked in publishing and then took it to a professor at my Business School right before Christmas of 19 and he said I was trying to help me to sort of work with him to get it published in Forbes or something and he said I think you have the makings of a book here. Fast forward, I said. How do you do that? And he introduced him in author coach and that’s really where the whole thing started. Your question no, because I went. I read one review and it said at a time when resilience is no longer optional and innovation is the only anecdote to disruption and it’s that was quite a powerful statement when I read that, and I thought, you know, yes, we’re in a complex world. Things are changing. Kind of at super speed. It feels like these days, and I, I think that it you’ve got to keep up and you’ve got to innovate and you’ve got to do things that other people aren’t doing. And if you’re a business that’s kind of stood still and. You know, you know, kind of embracing change in some way or another. Then you’re gonna get left behind. And I think there’s so many businesses which even I can think of myself, John, that have kind of fallen victim of not moving with the times, and I’m sure, well, I only have to say Blockbuster as an example, yeah? They were one I considered sighting in the book, but I ended up pulling at the last minute. But yeah, agreed and I guess to answer your question more directly, it is just opened so many doors for me. You know a number of my coaching engagements. I’m very happy to report. Have been inbound requests. Hey, you know this story you have here with is very practical. It’s applicable it’s you know, I think we can do something here and optimize our operations. And that’s been really, really. I’ve just been really fortunate in that regard, and I think this is a fascinating story. John, I really appreciate. Inside you’ve given to us just to kind of bring this back to, you know is a difficult time for a lot of young people at the moment. Kind of coming out of university in a world that hasn’t isn’t just changing through with it, they should. It’s also changing through things like the pandemic. What you know? What advice would you maybe give to someone? But maybe hasn’t gone to the best universities trying to find their way trying to get into a company and perhaps is knocking on the door and not being heard. You know, think about the analogy like users, the ceaser right that old kids thing where you know one kid is. One side and the other kids on the other side, and the heavier kid goes to the ground right and left the other one up I, I think about that in terms of the value that you bring and how do you bring value to an organization. And so instead of just knocking on their door and saying hey, I went to this school or you know this God create something golden right up Aper go ahead and maybe write a book or do something, write a blog and it’s relevant to their organization. You’ve gotta differentiate yourself. That is such a key part of this. And I don’t think it matters where you come from. You know the author coach that I worked with the program has students. From all over the world, and many of them you know they range from. I say the young at 18 to probably 50 to 60 years old. Constantly astounded how many people come through the program that are in college university kids, you know. 1820 years old 22 whatever go out and create something. Find a way to create real value in the world and differentiate yourself. Be more than just a resume. And if you’ve got a voice, let it be heard and do something that’s going to add value and be different. So that’s the message I’m taking from that sentiment job. Yeah, and don’t be afraid, absolutely, and I’ll put a finer point on that. The opening story in my book is about when I was on Wall Street, my career stalled a bit and I kind of thought. Gosh, I’m at 25 years old and I can’t get promoted anymore. You know, I went to a mentor and said, what should I do here? I’m kind of feeling kind of stuck and he said you know, why? Don’t you go find some volunteer work and I sort of snooped around a bunch and found a Film Festival in New York City. I was living there at the time and I became the director of sponsorship for this Film Festival and raised a bunch of money for them and develop this entirely new skill set. Way outside of my comfort zone, right? I’m on Wall Street. Now I’m doing fund raising. Folks, you know the arts world if you will, and boy, that experience didn’t completely change the trajectory of my career. ’cause then I brought these new skills and knowledge back to my Wall Street job and I looked at it entirely differently. And sure enough, the next promotion rolled around and I got it in my career. Really took off from there. So getting outside your comfort zone is the moral of that story and I think you know, I’ve, I think I’ve become an expert John at being outside of my comfort zone. I think I spent most of the last decade. Outside of my comfort zone, it be nice to actually be within the comfort zone for sad and thank you so much. It’s a beautiful story. If people want to find out more about you, or indeed they want to find out more about the optimizer, where can they go to assure my website it’s my name John with an HC, Sanders Saunders, John C sanders.com or my social media handles argex_optimizer like the name of the book and the book is available for $99 John on Kindle. It’s a ball game, you’re very kind. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It’s been an absolute delight speech. Thank you for the insight that you’ve shared with us. John, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Jason, thanks for having me. That was John Sanders from Washington DC in the US on Jason Connolly. This is the career Success podcast until next time goodbye.

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