Hello and welcome to the Career Success podcast. I’m Jason Connolly. If you are regularly, then it’s great to have you back, but if you knew, welcome to the show in this series. Every week we speak to the biggest names in business all across the globe. We talk about their career stories, the lessons, learn how they overcome challenges and what success habits they practice. Practical advice to help you in your career if you have a passion for business then this is the podcast for you.
In this episode I’m delighted to be joined by Joy Kingsley from Manchester. Joy is senior partner. Top 100 law firm JMW Solicitors Joy qualified as a solicitor in 1980 and his work for two law firms in her career. Panone and JM W join led and drove ponies. Turnover from 5 to 50 million over a 14 year. At her time at James W. She is led the turnover from 10 to £52 million. This year Joy has won countless awards throughout her career, including two Lifetime Achievement Awards. She has recently also been entered into Who’s Who. Joey, thanks for joining me. No problem. Very nice to speak to you Jason. Right? So you qualified as a solicitor in 1980. You’ve been in the legal industry for a long time. You’ve been extremely successful, will go on and talk about that. As the episode unravels, but tell us about how you got into law on what your journey into it was and how you’ve kind of progress for your career to ultimately get to where you are now. So yes, I had done art subjects at school and knew that I didn’t want to be a teacher or going to study a language and thought law might be quite interesting. One of my aunts was a magistrate at the time. I went to court with her and thought that I’d quite like to be an advocate in court and therefore applied University. Did law did a training contract in Manchester and the rest of it’s sort of history? I think I’m unusual in only having worked at two firms, say the exact number of years at each, ’cause that would no doubt tell you how old I am, but I’ve been there very. I’ve been at both firms quite a long time, shall we say you’re right, it is unusual and there was recently a survey done on LinkedIn about the average amount of tenure for a lawyer in the UK. And it’s only two years now, so that is unusual by current day standards, but it probably wasn’t at the time. I imagine people did tend to have more of a job for life back then. Tell me if you think I’m wrong. Yeah, I think that’s true. Wish there was always a name for partnership these days, either. Not everybody gets there who wants to bet. Equally there are people who decide that the life of a partner may not be for them, but in my time people tended to stay more with the firm that they were in for a much longer time. But obviously for yourself it’s been a very good development. Have people moving every two years, because when you’re in legal recruitment, that’s what you need. Isn’t it true? But what? Why do you think people do tend to move on more often now what where is that kind of? Is it a cultural shift? Do you think? Why do you think people tend to stay in jobs? So a lot less time from you? From your perspective, it’s not just in the law, I think it’s general that people perhaps look for change more want to drive on their careers more perhaps than they once did. Lots of things have changed the whole way that law firms are marketed both to people that might go work for them and to clients is completely different than when I entered the profession. When you were not allowed to approach other people’s clients, for example. So the whole thing of weather. A partner can bring clients with him, leave his current firm, come to a new firm, perhaps for larger amount of money, wasn’t there when I was called being the most important thing was that your firm did offer you job as a solicitor. Any qualified in my case, on the princely sum of £4750 a year and you stayed and if you got to be a partner there, you probably wouldn’t have a reason to move. So yes, it was more unusual but overtime. The advent of the legal recruiters came along and people move more and obviously now continue to move more and I think London there is much more movement that that even now than in the provinces. I don’t think the average in the provinces would be every two years and you say you know, obviously clients do move. Now, why do you think clients have become more portable, you know? And when do you think that shift came? Well, as I say, it was illegal for lawyers to poach other peoples clients. That is so obviously. People didn’t do that, but you have to wait for a client to approach you. If you wanted to move firms and clients tended to use one firm for their legal needs. And now I think they will use individuals and will use several firms. The larger the client, it’s likely that they’ll have more than one law firm, and they may use different things for different types of work. So I think clients now feel free to go to more than one firm, and if they’re not satisfied to move from one firm. To another you will also find the whole review system now, whereby you can find out reviews about law firms or literally anything online and people expect to do that. So I think it is much more of a business now than it was more of a calling. If you were a top class lawyer, regardless of whether you could attract clients or not, that would be what was expected and probably all that was expected. Now people are far more interested in. Who people think they can call their own and bring with them if they moved firms? Yeah, and I suppose with that also, you know does come opportunity for a clever well run law firm and talking about growth both your time Pannone at JMW you have been in the forefront of growing turnover absolutely substantially. I’m not going to go into what the percentages are, but I not math smart enough to work that out on the stock. But it’s a lot 5 to 50 million, 10 to $52 million a year. I know you’re never going to be able to unpack all of this, but how have you done that? And you know how have you got these firms to, you know, get to such a massive turnover over. You know, in some ways, what is a relatively short period of time. In both cases the same. And when I joined JMW, I thought that I’d be able to do something similar to what I’ve done at Pannone, and that proved to be the case. Law firms are people. Businesses like a lot of businesses are really, and if you get the right people. And these people either have clients or are capable of growing the client base then that is how we at JMW of grain and Pannone. Before that. It is not only one way to grow a law firm and there are many very large, long established law firms who have a whole book or very interesting large clients and to whom going out and getting more different from new clients wouldn’t be so important. But if you start. Say as I did it jam W where the firm at that time was known for personal injury and clinical negligence work and that was 70% of the 10 million turnover and my remit was to make it into a full service law firm, which is what we’ve achieved. We did that by combination of PR and business development, but also bringing in many new recruits, usually at partner level who clients in their specific work type. That they were able to bring with them, and they were personalities that we felt would fit with everybody else. They’re not all the same personality. We don’t have an ideal personality, but we did have. We did make sure that people would get on with people in the office clients. The people that work for them, the people they work for and that has proved largely successful. You have to be able to pick the right people from an interview, which might sound simple, but lawyers are clever people and after a couple of interviews you know you don’t always know exactly who somebody is and also whether what they’re telling you is entirely correct. And if you’ve been doing it a long time and you seem to have a reasonable flair for picking the right people, that’s also helped. So for us, that’s how we’ve grown, but other people grow in other ways, and I think that leads us really nicely on to the topic of recruitment, you know, and I think it’s something which we both have a common kind of passion and experience where I’ve placed hundreds of partners over the years and it’s, it’s a really costly mistake when you hire the wrong person. It’s not a cheap mistaken it, you know, I, I think there’s a lot to be said for just how difficult it is to screen someone. Then in the interview process. I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here, but I always think that it’s really driven by the interview and the interviewer. Allows the candidate to shine, but you’re an expert in recruitment and you know, I think from the that sort of time, but we’ve got to know one another. How you handle recruitment always being at the forefront of it. I that’s always struck me as one something quite unusual for a firm of your size, but it seems to be a recipe for success. Yes, I think that if you’ve got a partner that is very interested in recruitment and interested in people, and certainly I’m involved in every single partner hire, I won’t be involved in every single sister. Yeah, but sometimes I for various reasons. I will get involved because the people who are recruiting somebody very keen on a particular individual. I’ll know what interviews are going on and if there’s somebody that’s choosing between US and another firm, I might be able to input into that. So I do have a lot to do with our agreement, and I think that that is a different than some of the larger firms where HR run recruitment really aren’t involved. The partners only on interview, and I think sometimes we move pretty quickly and. Alright, just a job offer when somebody else is only onto the second of four interviews and I think if I’ve got enthusiasm for the firm and so have fellow partners of mine, but equally so half the younger people, then you know the right message will come across. We won’t always get every single person that we would like to join us. Sometimes they will think well, I’m only one year qualified and the team that I’m going to act X large firm is. Larger and maybe the clients larger and therefore at my stage in my career I think that X firm it would be for the better firm for me, so we’re not going to as it work at every client on board, but I think we have done better than most people would think, particularly recently in London because we were not known in London at all. We didn’t have a London office two years ago and we now have 100 people in our London office and initially it was quite. Interesting persuading people to join you and many of the people that came to an interview sat down saying, well, I don’t really know why I’m here. I’m relatively happy in my job and I just agreed with the recruiter I’d come. I’ve never heard of GMW, but quite quickly were converted into. Well, actually I am interested in the GNW offering because it’s quite a flat structure. It’s a new structure. People aren’t stuck behind other people who’ve been in that role for a very long time. They’re allowed to really do whatever they feel will be beneficial to the firm. And will only be stopped from doing that if it doesn’t prove beneficial to the firm saying we’ve lost few people in London where as I was told we would lose 50% lateral hires in an 18 month period. That’s not been the case at all, and I think we’re going to come on to the London office in just a moment because it’s something I think is really interesting. It’s something that’s very current, very, very relevant. Lots of herbs have tried to do it. Some firms have been successful, other firms have merged to try and do it, but you know, I think what’s really unique about you is the fact that you’ve kind of gone out there. Done it being successful and like you said you had you had great retention and just as important as recruitment is retention, before we come on to that. I just want to deal with a bit deeper with recruitment. I do agree with what you’re saying. I think I think a HR gets in the way. A lot of the time when it comes to recruitment and I’ve found over the years that HR individuals aren’t necessarily good recruiters and the amount of times I even. I think that kind of partner hires have been kind of jeopardised by that of kind of HR in the process. I think you’ve just got that that formula right? And it sounds like it really does work for you and it sounds like you’re the person that’s called on for. Any recruitment query you are the ultimate where the Buck stops which you know. I think a lot of partners don’t want to necessarily be at the forefront of improvement, but it seems to do really well for you. Well, how is it that you determine who’s right for J&W and how you’ve obviously hone these skills over the years? But how is it that you kind of make that judgment call when you’re in today when you’re hiring someone? It’s massive investment and you know it’s your name on the line. You’re the one that’s endorsing them. How? How do you decide and decipher who’s right and who’s not? I think it’s not like people that tell you that they. May not be an art expert, but they know what they like or somebody that’s picking a girlfriend or boyfriend. You know you know what when you see it. I, I think that that in general terms, we know what makes a good GNW person. That would be somebody that puts the firm at the centre of what they’re doing at all times. Not very egotistical people, not people who are already asking whether you’re going to pay them more than three other people that they’ve got offers from before they’ve even sat down people who aren’t. Really interested in the firm or what we’ve done or what we where we see things going. They wouldn’t be good for us either. A lot of it is what you know you don’t want, but equally, where people are entrepreneurial where they can give evidence in the interview of the clients they’ve got and why they’ve got them. People who are hardworking, we haven’t, as I say, got one identikit picture at all. We’ve got a lot of different people, but there’s. There are just common themes that you don’t want, and you do want, so that’s really how it is. I think it sounds to me like you’ve drilled down on the kind of personality profile of some of its going to work, so of talking about retention. Then you obviously it’s a massive law firm, James W. How is it? You make sure from kind of a senior partner level that you’re retaining people? Do you kind of have a strategy that you’ve devised over the years? How do you run that side of things? I think you have to be successful as a firm financially. Before you start really getting into the recruitment of partners because. If you aren’t successful financially, then the people that are interested in joining you will not always be the best people and often won’t be as long as you’re reasonably successful financially, then you come talk to the right people. So I think that that that’s important, but and therefore equally where people do perform very well for you when you join them, you carry on incentivising them. We never think oh right? Well we have to pay reasonably large amount in order to attract this person who has done. Incredibly well for us, but now will leave them on that money for a few years and hope they’ll be happy. Will always have to find different ways and financial ways of keeping the stars happy, but also, I mean, it’s all about communication. It’s all making sure that the person that runs the London office in the Adams is on top of how everybody’s feeling and the time you know talk to people. If I’m needed to talk to people and I regularly communicate with the group and we explain what we’re doing and why we’re doing it and. You know, I think that that’s when we hit the pandemic, for example, and you know the first month really after that happened, we took about a third of the normal cases into the firm that we would have done. Property was very badly hit. We immediately sorted out what we were going to do at board level and what we were going to do with staff and we decided not to alter staff salaries at all. But the partners all took a bit of a. Pay cut and then as soon as it all came back again. That pay cut stopped and everything was communicated so that people if people are involved in the decision making. People are in told the minute decisions have been made then they are much happier right communication and engagement I think are the key to any relationship, not just whether it be an employer, employee relationship or whether it be a relationship in general. So you know, I think you’re exactly right there talking about the London office then. It’s been hugely successful for you going into London I know from even you know I’ve been there, done that one. The T shirt. I’ve always been a London recruiter. It’s not easy. Lots of firms try to do it. Don’t do it well or you know it’s not a success or they you know funnel lots and lots of money into it to find that you know it’s not just a case of having a London post code, it’s much more complex than that. Tell us about how the idea for the London office came about and what was the kind of logic for you having a London office when you’re such a Northern powerhouse and. You know how you’ve managed to grow that into what it is today? So we knew that we needed some form of London office for two reasons. Really, two departments, business crime being one where they do a lot of work in London and are the national lawyers for chief constables and police superintendents. And we’re doing some very high profile cases and having to see the clients in either barristers chambers or hotels or whatever. And on the other side, we just. Taking their 14 person divorce team from another firm, they joined us and because that firm didn’t have divorce lawyers in their London office. Their divorce lawyers working in London a lot and had good Contacts there. So that was the initial reasoning. But we could have done the thing that a lot of people do, which is get a cheap serviced office. Put about five people in it and think it may grow in one way or another and we decide to do it completely differently than that and do it the same way as we grow Manchester and aim to put quite a good number of people across as many work types as we could, and we took proper. Class accommodation at King Street. And we started with one floor and I promised that we would only have one floor for the first year. But in fact by the end of the first year we had two and 1/3 the pandemic and we’ve just, you know, you started off with a small number of Partners Day one we had, I think 6 partners when we opened on the 1st of May, we’d already met Lee Adams in a situation where we might have merged with his previous firm, but we decided not to, and. Lee then approached us and joined, joined us to be the London managing partner. He found the accommodation and there off we went really and a couple of recruiters. Your firm being one of them and another firm as well were very helpful to us over time. And I mean we were very helpful to them as well. I will vouch for that well. Endorsement comments. You know good candidates were found, but then we have to persuade those candidates that you know we would be a good decision for them compared to better known London firms. Obviously, as time went on and more PR came about and the lawyer wrote quite a nice article about us which started with them not believing that we employed the number of partners, we said, we employed within a year, but we did a 5,000,000 turnover which was target for our first year and this year, which finishes at the end of April. We have done 10 million and the target next year will be 15 million in London, so 61 million for the firm overall. So yes, that has worked well, but it’s been hard work and check it later 100% of the time and but you know the London office has been huge for us in Manchester and we’ve just created our first two full Equity Partners in London. We made seven, you Flex partners this year, which isn’t usual. It’s normally one or two a year, but this year we made 75 in Monster into in London. So big congratulations that’s you know, no mean feat at all. And I can imagine just you know how challenging that’s been at times. I think you know what’s always been kind of, apparently and evidently clear to me is you’ve always had a very strong vision and it’s always JM W kind of brand. The vision who you want it. So it’s all it all seems very clear and it all seems. Quite crystallising and I, I think from a recruitment perspective has been, you know, definitely part of your success. What’s been the kind of most challenging point about getting the London office off the ground? Yes, let me think really, I suppose. Actually the early date. Well, there’s two. There’s the early days when we knew that we wouldn’t be making money and dare I say it, money was going out to recruitment agents in huge amounts, but obviously it takes a while for people to arrive and start building up their Work etc. So trying to keep. The lid on the finances, early doors and then no difference in London and Manchester. The advent of the pandemic and not knowing how long business would be affected for not knowing how long would be shut for and how that would all be or go so you know that was only our second year having a London office. So that was a sort of a reasonably major challenge and London in the first pandemic was hit. 1st and hit worse than Manchester, but overtime. You know sometimes ones one areas being worse than the other better and then it’s reversed around again. But like everybody else you know we’ve worked. We’ve been able to work from home. RIT hasn’t been a problem and the work came back. Thank goodness. Very quickly, you know so. We’ve been able to. We’ve got nobody on furlough anymore, and that’s great people, you know we will have a Goodyear this year, whereas we have taken just an OK year at the beginning of all of it. So obviously it’s not just financial. The effects of that. It’s mental health. It’s also, you know, managing the whole thing of whether people can come into the office and how and who wants to and who doesn’t want to. And you know, moving forward as we go from here so you know it has been challenging, but I’ve. Feel like, not just we’re over the worst of it. I think even when the pandemic was at its worst again in January, I think we all felt more confident about everything then yes we did in April, May when nobody recognized what they were dealing with. I agree with you, and I’ve always kind of believed that I think the best businesses are sometimes built off the back of awful times and it’s a real kind of test of just how good great you know, not just law firm, but how great are businesses in itself? And I think we, you know. With my business, we’ve had kind of quite a similar experience by the sounds of it to you. For out this I can’t not ask you some of these questions ’cause I know there’s going to be people listening to this who are just thinking, right? I want somebody top questions answered by someone extremely successful in legal, so I’m going to crack on with some of these questions. Joy, ’cause I’m sure you can add value to a lot of people listening to this now. I’m a junior lawyer and I want to build up a client base because I want to become a partner one day. What is your advice for doing that? Create your network. From day one, you’re almost too late. If you already, as Lister, because you should have a network from when you were at University, you probably have you’ve got a network on LinkedIn and make that network work for you. Because if people ask you for help, you probably automatically give it without even thinking, and you should be prepared to say you know I was at University with that person who’s now doing this. I mean, I can give an example where I didn’t and haven’t done that. I I was at University. With Tim Martin, who is extremely well known in the brewing business. But I’ve never approached him for work. I probably should have done. But if you know people that you were at University with or even school with that you think can be helpful to you, then make sure you keep in touch with those people and it’s not that you need to pile in on day one, saying to them immediately. You know, right? Where’s my work? But if you keep you know, you set up a group even of you that. Are in different work types whether they may have gone into account and see where they may have been. Finance directors who’ve gone to work for large companies. You will have the ability to get in touch with people who are at school with you University with you, who you now know in many different ways and those can be your future clients. And these days most law firms do expect that you are networking in one way or another. There are endless groups that you can join. You wouldn’t want to join all of them at the minute. All of that. Been a bit restricted but you know you know who your Contacts are and who you talk to regularly and there’s nothing to stop you and people will have been having zooms for the entire pandemic, etc. So I think start with the network and do it straight away. Don’t wait till you know you’re more senior. If there are opportunities in the firm to help out at networking events, even if it’s only giving out badges to be people, that will give you the opportunity later on to be talking to the. People who wear and face to face interaction when it can happen again. There isn’t really a substitute for it. But again, I think having used zoom in teams and all these things, I suspect we’ll all do more still in that way rather than go and meet people for a coffee every single time, ’cause it’s very, very time consuming. And it’s interesting that we’ve spent a lot less on marketing than we normally would. And business development and we spent a lot less on travel, and yet the profits about the same because we’re spending less. But we may be getting slightly less work. Who knows? So yes, I think that just making sure that you’ve got a good number of people around you who can refer people to you, ’cause they know that you’re a lawyer, whether it be a divorce client who you know a friend of theirs that they know, right? The way through to somebody that’s working for large corporate. All of those people can be your network. I think you make some really valid points there, and it’s something I’ve spoken about a lot, especially the power of brand you and you know, I’ve said to graduate from Law Society webinars that you need to be building up brand new from day one. It isn’t just something. Suddenly the light bulb switches on at 2-3 years PQE it should be something that you’re doing even at junior level, so I fully endorse what you’re saying there, and I think that’s a really, really valid point. So kind of moving on then to kind of top tips for becoming a partner. I think that ties really nicely into building a client base, but what would you say to someone who’s you know, really thinking, right? I want to get to partnership. I want to have the success that many people are having out there in the market and I want to get there as quickly as possible. What would you say to those people? Well, you need to first of all, think, do I want to be a partner? In the firm I’m in, and if the answer to that is no, then move and the answer is no. You know, in a in a lot of cases and so make sure you’re within the type of firm that you want to be apart there and make sure you have all the information about how and when you can get through your particular firm’s way of getting to partnership. The larger the firm, the more likely that there are perhaps more steps to take more training to do seem to know. When you need to apply to what and speak to a broad range of people within the firm so that you know what it is they look for because not everybody looks exactly for the same thing. Here people can apply for promotion every year right from being promoted to being an associate to being promoted to being an equity partner. We do all the promotions at the same time and people generally speak to their heads of Department, not just when they’re applying birthday. They’re getting along, but there are attributes that people are bound to look for, which is hard work from the beginning. You don’t want to get a name as a trainee for being the one that always insisted on leaving Dot on five o’clock. Whatever was going on because people will remember that. Unfortunately, I do next few years and you obviously you talked about building your brand, and that’s true internally as well as externally, and therefore be careful with your social media. You know you think want people to boy? Yeah, you gotta be careful with that.
But equally you know you should be genuine in your desire to promote the firm and carry on doing that, and you know you will be notice if you perform well. If you bill well. If you feel you’re not getting a fair crack of the whip, then say so, as in you feel that you’re not getting, perhaps as good work in your team as it is available in some other teams, but you could always put that in a positive way, as in you’d be very interested in working a bit with ex, who’s in a different team than yours. To broaden your horizons, etc. And that’s the way you build. And yes, having Contacts and clients and thinking about what your firm will find attractive in a partner is the way to go. And I totally agree with you there. I think there’s a couple of lessons you just talked about. I think one is being organized and another one is project who you want to become to be that person. There’s no good starting to think. Actually, I want to become this person so many years in. If you know project those were sent out to the universe then it hopefully will come back in abundance. I’ve got two more questions for you Joy and our time is running out of with each other, but I think we must cover these questions off of people listening the big one, but we get called about every single day. The training contract on how to get a training contract. It is one of the most popular questions all over the Internet. What is the Joy Kingsley advice to how to secure a training contract? I think these days the route in for at least half our trainees will be. I’m applying to be a paralegal. When you leave University and whether that’s part time while you’re working to get your qualifications, your LPC, or whether it’s when you’ve already done that, there are so few comparatively training contracts with people that want them, and so many really good candidates. That of course, we’re always going to favour those that have worked here for a year or two years because we’ll know them a lot better and therefore. But it won’t be so much the risk that you get when you employ somebody who’s good at being interviewed and you interview them twice, and they may not end up being the greatest rainy, but people have already worked for you for a year or two years, then you know, but I would say that we take on about 20 trainees a year, and of those come from our paralegal base and 50% don’t. So again, having a very good CV is very important. You should aim for a 21 because. Most universities now give far more to ones than they used to 20 years ago, so you need to aim for a orifice right? And you need to have an interesting CV. So if you’ve only done your academic qualifications and you haven’t worked literally, you know when you’re in the sixth Form. You haven’t done a job you’ve never done legal work experience, or you’ve only done legal work experience in your father’s firm. You know you need to have a wide invariant CV. And you know, again, think about what people are going to be looking for, but it is difficult. And each year we could. If we had 50 training contracts, we could employ 50 people so you know, I think that that’s really how you do it. If you do know somebody in a law firm again, being able to chat to the training partner at that law firm could be useful to you, but the whole work experience and internship programs that the larger firms do again. And it’s important to get on those, although it’s very time consuming to apply because some firms have sort of 40 pages they want filling in for their internships. And then they might take you know, what do I know? know? 50 people on an internship out of thousands that that apply so it is difficult. But if you’re really keen on it as a career and you’re not just falling into it, then you know I think your enthusiasm will shine through and I think the more experience you managed to get. The better applicant you are, and I think that’s really good experience. I think some of the points you’ve covered there are absolutely key, and I think it’s also a beautiful thing that you take a lot of your paralegals through to being trainees, because I’ve notice with a lot of larger firms it seems that it’s all about the external kind of applicants when it comes to training contracts, and it seems like with a lot of larger, especially top 50 firms, that kind of internal talent is overlooked and people tend to seem to get stuck at 1/4 high salary level and then they just can’t seem to move and they seem to become career paralegals, which I find really sad. I’m going to get my wrist slap ’cause we are running over time, but I want to ask you one more question. ’cause I think we want to get the most out of this episode. We possibly can interview. What is your top tip for someone senior coming to you? Let’s say someone five years. Plus what interview advice would you give them? Well, it may sound obvious but be prepared at least. Have a have a proper look at the website and be able to ’cause it’s no good. So yeah, I’ve had to look at your website, which means that they’ve read the home page. Literally looked at what departments we have really be prepared to spend a couple of hours looking into it, so you can have a sensible conversation about something you’ve seen on it that you’re interested in, and we have heard that you know that senior count those senior candidates and also partners who thought they weren’t going to be interested, so they’ve done very little preparation and they little about us. Then they get a lot more interested in the interview, but they haven’t given a good impression of themselves because they haven’t prepared. For the interview, and obviously I think that you need to stop enthusiastic about the opportunity when you do a lot of lawyers think that honesty is the best policy and not all lawyers are necessarily very adept at thinking well. What does the person that’s listening to me want to hear? There are ways of saying certain things that are better than other ways and sort of saying, well, I’ve never heard of you isn’t going to endear you particularly. Where is saying. While I haven’t heard of you, ’cause you’ve only been in London for two years, I’ve talked to one or two people who joined you, who I’d worked with previously and they really enthusiastic, and that’s made me really enthusiastic. Or I’ve looked at your website and I realize there’s a lot more in London than I knew about. So tell me all about it, you know it, it’s a question of being positive, being enthusiastic. Of course you’ll have other opportunities as well, but I’m just, you know how you deal with the process, you know? It is sort of not answering phone calls from your recruiter for a few days ’cause you’re too busy doesn’t endear you to me putting no, that’s a big cross as well joy as well. I’ve been interested enough in take a call during the next people if they’re interested in the job, will find a time that they can speak to their recruiting. Everyone has five minutes joy. I don’t swallow that someone doesn’t have 5 minutes in a few days just for the record. Say, Oh well, I’ve been a bit busy this week, so you know pops are speak next week. You know people are watching how you know how you react to things like that and you may be shooting yourself in the foot as far as getting offers concerned. Well, you’re making an assessment on someone, then I think that’s really good advice. There is a treasure trove of advice and good lessons that you’ve provided throughout this, and I wish you and JMW all the success over the next year. It sounds like it’s a really exciting year for you, and it sounds like you’re going to come out this as. Such a stronger firm when you was going in, which is such a beautiful thing, so all I can say joy is a big thank you for joining me on this episode. Thank you very much. Weight has it’s before I could talk for at least another half an hour if people want to find out more about you or about JMW, where can they go too? Well, just go to the website to put GMW into the Internet. You’ll find this very quickly and my email is on there. I’m on LinkedIn. People contact me all the time and I will always reply even if I’m referring you to somebody else in the firm so. I will means contact me in a very easy way and are you interested to hear from people who might be interested in you at the moment? Yeah, always interested to hear from right. Fantastic joy. Thank you so much for joining me. Thanks very much. That was Joy Kingsley from Manchester, senior partner of JMW solicitors. I’m Jason Connolly. This is the Career Success podcast until next time goodbye.