Hello and welcome to the Career Success podcast. I’m Jason Connolly. If you are a regular listener and it’s great to have you back, but if you new, welcome to the show in this insightful thought provoking series. We speak to business leaders and people have had high levels of career success, but we also talked to up and coming an emerging business talent. We speak to such a variety of people all across the globe, will talk about success habits and what they do in order to ensure they stay at the top of their game. Listen and find out hints and tips to help you in the world of business. How do you set up your own company and make sure it’s a success? We’ll also talk about how to drive business growth and give your company notice practical advice to help you in your career from those who made it.
In this episode, I’m joined by Terry Boyle McDougall from Chicago in the US. Terry was a long-time corporate marketing executive where she led teens develop strategies and advise senior leaders in how to drive business results. She is the author of winning the Game of Work, Career, Happiness and success on your own terms. Terry, thanks for joining me on this episode. Jason, thank you so much for having me. I’m delighted to be here. Thank you so much. So before we kind of get onto the books and what you do. Current day, talk to us about how it all kind of began for you. What happened, how you kind of evolved through your career? ’cause obviously you have an absolute mountain of experience. experience. years in the marketing talked herself out. How it all kind of got started for you. Yeah, it’s hard to believe that it’s been that long. It doesn’t. It doesn’t feel like it. But you know, I the first memory that I have of wanting to work in marketing or slash advertising. Was there used to be a television show? On in the US called Bewitched, this was back in the 1960s, and I think when I was a kid I watched it on reruns and the husband on the show he was married to a witch, but the husband on the show worked for an advertising agency and for whatever reason that just stuck with me and I thought oh that seems interesting. ’cause I was artistic, creative so that kind of stuck with me.
And then when I first got out of college, my boyfriend’s mom gave me a book. That’s called what colour is your parachute and she said before you start. Interviewing for jobs. I want you to read this book and do all the exercises in the book and really, the book is all about. Doing a little introspection to figure out what are you good at and what do you like to do and the results of me doing those exercises, were that I really should focus on something that was marketing, advertising, publishing related, and my first job was working in the ad sales Department as an assistant to the sales people that sold advertising. So that was really my foot in the door into the world of marketing. If you will. And once I was there, it felt like it was a really good fit. And you know, I just continued to work in that field until I guess when I was 29 I went back to Business School to get an MBA an my motivation behind that was that I really wasn’t moving up in my career as quickly as I wanted too. I was really ambitious and wasn’t really sure how to crack the night of like how to get to the next level. So I decided to get the MBA and that definitely helped me. I got into financial services marketing when I got out of business. Cool, and that was really when things took off for me and I actually worked in financial services marketing for 21 years before I left to start my own business. And I guess marketing in itself in the period. You’ve kind of been in the industry has changed loads in itself. Oh my gosh absolutely. I you know it’s really funny for me to think about that first job that I that I had coming out of college. I graduated from College in 1986 and I had to take a typing test. Even though I had a degree in economics, I had to take a typing test, yet the job and there was a typewriter at my desk. I typed the letters, I mean. Just think about this, how antiquated this is. I typed letters on paper for the sales people to put in envelopes and Mail out to their clients. Thank thankfully, you know, I was pretty good typist, but you know, every once in awhile I do, you know, put the letter in front of the salesperson and he’d come back and say, oh, you left a word out of the first line here, so I have to re type the whole darn letter and a few months into that job I got a PC. Thank goodness it was like pre Windows black screen with green type and I had to like put in like little commands to Bolden and Dent and all that stuff. But it was such a blessing because I didn’t have to re tight. If I made a mistake. I just had to go in and correct the mistake. Instead of, you know, trying to use white out or have to re type the whole the whole letter so you know there’s technology there and then early in my career you know, working in magazine publishing back in the 80s the way that they got subscribers was through direct Mail an I would say probably the first. You know six or seven years of my career was really focused in direct Mail marketing and you know that’s used very rarely now. You know it’s not like it used to be. Now with one of the things I will say is that the whole thought process and the you know developing a hypothesis about what you think will sell and testing and learning and all of that. It’s the same thing. It’s the same concepts is what they used today in digital marketing. It’s just that back in those days it might take a couple weeks to know whether your campaign worked or not. You have to wait for their envelopes to come back, or the phone calls to come in to buy them. Product versus now all the stuff that stuff happens. You know in NS right this instant gratification. If it works, yeah, it’s. It’s different, it’s very different, you know, and certainly as time went on you know it was important. I mean it’s funny, I can remember it at my first job after Business School when we got the when we got a website. I mean I work for a big bank. We were like, oh, we’re going to get a website. So in some ways I feel really privileged to have been there to witness history. You know, ’cause there’s a lot of people today that. Imagine the world without a lot of the you know technological things that we deal with everyday, but you know I was there to see that. See that stuff develop in real time is really quite interesting. Do you think that kind of companies these days and how they were back then? Do you think that there is kind of do when you were back at this or when you started this sort of 2530 years ago? Was there the same importance or the same value that companies placed on marketing Department? That they place now? Or was it kind of seen as old? This is a you know, a supporting function of the sales Department now marketing departments are in there. You know, very much in their own rights as it kind of changed in the value that people see. Do you think that companies place on a marketing Department these days as it transitioned over a period of time? Well, I mean I, I think that even marketing department’s now, depending on what the industry is and you know the structure of the company, I think that some marketing Department still struggled with getting a seat at the table. I happen to believe that it’s a critical function and I think it’s one that can be misunderstood by a lot of people. And I mean I’ve talked to a lot of people and I think a lot of people in marketing will agree that when you say the word marketing that it can mean very different things to different people and that can cause confusion an oftentimes, you know, undervaluing of the impact that marketing can have. But that said, I don’t know, it’s really hard to. It is in points. It’s hard to compare to tell you the truth. It’s OK, yeah, and I mean when I think back to working in publishing companies and how critical. Marketing was to their success. Like, you know, direct Mail was King and you know we had to be mailing all the time to be able to increase the subscriber base. And to, you know get the renewals and all that kind of stuff. So really marketing was at the heart of the engine of the company. Besides the content that we were we were selling so I think it was very much appreciated but I have worked at places where you know marketing was looked at as like the party planners or the people that made stuff look pretty. Marketing is a lot more strategic than that, and you know, I think I think it’s very important for leadership to understand the power of marketing and to understand the breath and the impact that marketing can have. But not everybody does, and you mentioned, was it you were 29 years old when you decided that you wanted to take them out to work with yourself. Yeah, little bit. Be awhile to finally decide just to do it. I was when I started my own business and I think it took me in my 20s. I knew that I wanted to do it, but I didn’t necessarily know what it was I wanted to do or how I wanted to do it. Is that kind of drive with you all throughout your 20s and then you know, suddenly it just all slotted into place. Or how did that kind of manifest itself? This transition to working for yourself I? Well, I mean, I guess I could talk about the, you know, Business School transition and then what happened later when I decided to go out on my own, I had decided I wanted to get an MBA. It out right when I got out of undergrad, I decided I wanted to get an MBA, so I took like the entrance exams and everything but then I started working and I was making money. I was having fun and you know just doing what you do in your 20s. But there was a point as I was in my late 20s that I was working for this company. I liked it and I was I had growth opportunities there and everything but a colleague of mine that I worked really closely with got married and moved away and I think it really opened my eyes up to the fact that. If I didn’t do something different than everything around me was going to change, just you know, slowly but surely, as happens in the world and that I just still be sitting there, and I probably wouldn’t be very happy with it. And that just made me realize, like, OK, you’ve had this ambition in your back pocket for awhile about going back to school. And maybe now is the time, and so you know in some ways sort of impulsively. ’cause I didn’t know how I was going to pay for it or anything. I just I called the actual University of Maryland that was close to where I was working at the time and. There their deadline for applications like 2 days away, and so I applied and I got in and you know within a couple of months I was they’re going to school full time. And you know, somehow I figured out how to how to pay for it and I’m I was so happy that I did. It just was really like this sort of paradigm shift that I needed in my life. And when I got out I was really able to take that next step up in my career was looked at more as a true died in the wool marketing professional and not just some. Why was the NBA so important? Was it kind of that scene that hallmark of prestige? Or was it kind of? What was the location for it? It was a credential Icing factor. I think you know just from a marketing standpoint ’cause I had decent experience, but I I’ve been working and more of like the print production area of marketing. I did some graphic design and I wasn’t getting into sort of the strategic area of marketing and I had been applying for jobs in that. In that area and I just wasn’t getting any traction at all, and so it just told me that I needed to do something different in order to make that transition to where I wanted to be an. So I just decided to go back to school in it, and certainly it did exactly what I hoped it would do. Did it give you more confidence as well when you was going out there and pitching for the work? Yeah, I think so, because I think people look at you with more respect. They’re kind of like, oh, OK, here’s somebody who’s been trained in all aspects of business, I mean. Valley Business School. You know you’re studying everything. You know operations and you know I tion, finance and accounting and marketing leadership, you know. So they I think they look and say, OK. Well, here’s somebody who really you know is well rounded in all of the different areas of marketing. Or I mean of a business. So I think that just helps me. I was looked at with more as more credentialed. OK, so talk to us about how that kind of business evolved and how you went into doing the coaching and. And how that all manifested itself? Well? I mean, after I got out of Business School, I worked for 21 years for two for two bank. Now we’re sort of zooming through the years. It’s funny because I never really thought that financial services would be an interesting career. Honey, ’cause being an economics major I it would actually have made sense for me to go into that out of undergrad, but it just seemed boring to me. But once you know at this point I was married, my husband and I wanted to buy house and so I got into financial services and it actually was very interesting and so just learned a ton in that time. You know, really like observed, how things operate in these big companies, you know, dealt with great leaders, crazy leaders, strange situations, mergers, acquisitions, you know just. Basically became experienced in those 2021 years and in the last place that I worked in both, I worked at two companies, one for like 9 years, another one for 12 years, and at each company I probably had about four jobs at each company. During that time. In my last company, the last job that I was that I was placed into like I was asked if I wanted this job and I took it a little bit under duress. I didn’t. Awesome sure I really wanted it, but I was kind of talked into taking it and it. Really wasn’t a great fit to tell you the truth. It I didn’t. I wasn’t very happy in that role, but I’d been there for 12 years. I pretty much had done everything that I was interested in doing in the company, so I sort of like fantasizing about leaving, but I was really sure what I wanted to do next. It ended up that they went through it through this sort of restructuring that put me in a position to leave without having another job that I was going to be OK for awhile. And so when I left I just decided to take some time off. Sort of like detox from the stress that I had experienced over these last couple of years and really think about what do I want to do. I kind of went back to that lights when I first got out of college about what are you good at and what do you like to do? An ad as a leader I had always spent a lot of time coaching and mentoring people on my staff and that had helped me be successful. Mean when you’ve got good people that know what their jobs are and feel confident and you know, come in and give their best everyday, it only makes you look better as a leader. It only you know ’cause you’re. You’re people are achieving things and so you know I thought I think that would be interesting to become an executive coach. So I I found a credentialing training program and I went through that program to get become a certified professional coach. At first I thought I would get another job and just kind of do this on the side and use the skills in my new job. But as I was among my classmates and many of whom were planning on starting their own businesses, it just. I guess it was sort of contagious in a way and I thought, well, why not? You know what? Why don’t I just give this a shot? I can always go get another job, but I might not always be in a position to start my own business and so kind of going back to. I finished that training program and January of so it’s been three years, wow, so not very long in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, you know, I had some clients while I was still in the training program, but. But yeah, you know it’s been three years. I’m still going strong and I love it. I mean it. It really it. It allows me to combine my deep interest in business problems. I mean, I love I love business. I love brainstorming about how to achieve goals and I love thinking through sort of complex situations. And I like helping people. You know? So being an executive and career coach, I get to combine those two. Interesting, how did you kind of build it all up then and start attracting clients and I’m guessing finding people that you know had a good working relationship with how did it all kind of? How did you start building that? Well, it’s to start with it was just leveraging my own network. You know, a lot of people in my network knew that I was going through the training program and part of the training program requires you to get a certain number of hours coaching. So in the beginning I was offering free coaching. You know ’cause it was? I needed to become credentialed to a certain number of people that were in my network. And you know, people enjoyed it. They started referring me to people when I announced on LinkedIn that you know, I kind of changed my title from. I’ve been doing some marketing consulting when I first left my job before I became a coach, Ann, when I changed it, I had people reach out and say, oh, you’re doing coaching now. I was just thinking about getting a coach right? So a lot of a lot of members. Clients were people that I just knew. One of my first clients with somebody that I met at my very first job and, well, it’s sort of stayed in touch over the years. And you know, again, she was kind of thinking like, oh, I’ve got something that I could really use some guidance on. You know she had a work situation, but that’s part of what I’ve done. I’ve aligned myself with some affiliates. I guess you could say that will actually send me clients. And you know, I’ve been active on LinkedIn, and you know always, always be networking out, talking with people and done. But it’s about building brand you, isn’t it? That that’s what’s important. That’s it, really, that’s what you’ve encompassed over the years. And you know, it’s come back. Kind of around. 360 for you, hasn’t it? What? You started with back in? You know, many years ago you know is now. Yeah, yeah, you know and I, I suppose I’m thankful to that 22 year old for being a solid person. Page back way back when because in some ways I’m kind of surprised, but I I suppose that when somebody knows your character that they trust that you know, and I I think that even though I matured and I’ve learned and I’m experienced a lot, and in those 30 something years, I’m still, you know it hurt the same person I was, and I still have the same character, you know? So I think people feel like I, I I well, if you kind of being similar things that have come up since you’ve been doing this coaching, I appreciate everyone is an individual, but do you tend to see sort of similar? I’m traits or themes of people or similar problems that people tend to have. Since you’ve been, you know, in the world of coaching, yeah, I do. You know, I suppose. Actually this is funny. Like among my my coach friends will talk about the fact that we often end up coaching people on stuff that we’ve had to surmount ourselves. An I was an ambitious person, you know, I I say that I work with high achieving people that are successful but not satisfied. And what I mean by that is they are successful on paper. When you look there you’re like wow, they got a great title. They work for a good company. They’re making a lot of money and you say, well, you’re just clearly a success. But a lot of times when they come to me and what we discover is there paying a high price for that success. So they’re feeling stress. They’re feeling burnt out there, feeling like they don’t have a lot of choices. They might feel stock, or they might even be experiencing health problems or relationship problems, right? ’cause there so. Concerned with work and I help people in two ways. You know to really get curious about like OK, why? Why are you feeling like you need to pour so much into this without getting as much back in terms of satisfaction? You know sometimes, like really examining what are the beliefs here and then also helping people develop skills so that they could be more effective in their roles. An you know a lot of there. There are a couple of patterns that I’ve seen. One is that high achievers. Often are very concerned with external validation an in many ways of sense in terms of you know if somebody’s been successful in their lives, they’ve consistently been rewarded for meeting expectations. So in school, if they got, you know if they got marks they were, you know, oh, you did a great job and maybe their parents made a big deal or their teachers were giving them positive attention. Maybe they got into you, know, a more competitive University because they had good marks in there. Rewarded for this concern about what two other people expect of me, and then when they get into the workplace that can serve them well too, right? Like what does my boss want a woman to go above and beyond what my boss expects and they get rewarded for that. But the flipside of what happens in that case is that they often will lose touch with what their desires are, you know. And if you go back to thinking you know young children initially, young children do not want to sit down and do their homework, right? They? They’re like no. I want to go out and play. So far along the line for a lot of high achievers, it does shift to know like I get satisfaction out of doing this. ’cause I know I’m going to get a good mark on this paper or this lab report or whatever. They expect this from school and when they get rewarded that they say, OK, well this is worth delaying gratification so that I get that reward. But when they’re delaying that they lose touch with what they really enjoy, what they like to do. And so therefore aren’t focusing they don’t have the balance in their life about. I’m going to put a boundary here. I’m only going to work X number of hours a day and I’m going to turn off the phone, turn off the email. I’m gonna go do things that I enjoy, and when people lose touch with that, things get out of balance. That’s when people get stuck. That’s when they get burnt out because they’re not relaxing and recharging their batteries so that their approach to work is sustainable. It’s about balance and I think what you mentioned quite a few times there was. You mentioned about success and. How you know these people are successful when it’s I think you can look, you know, through the glass at someone and think you know someone is successful, but you know success is a very kind of open ended term and you know it’s open to interpretation and what you know might don’t like success from the outside looking into someone else you know, does that person feel internally successful? You know when you’re absolutely run down into the ground, you know it is that successor? Is that not? That’s you, know, and I guess that’s something that you know obviously have conversations with your clients about. Exactly I mean, we often will start off with. You know values assessment like what’s important go right. OK, well if you’re spending time with your family is important to you and you know you’re working 12 hours a day, you’re not really living up to what you say are your most important values you know. So sometimes some people really see it in that stark relief. That can be the motivator to say, OK. Why am I doing this, and do I want to continue doing this? And you know, sometimes people also tell themselves things that just aren’t true. It might be that they say, oh, if I don’t work this many hours, I’m going to get fired or I won’t get the promotion or whatever, but I really try to, you know when I talked about helping people with skill development, you know, sometimes people approach their jobs in a way that’s under leveraged means that they’ve got resources at their disposal that they’re not using. As you know that they’re not leveraging to get the impact that they could get. And I, you know, I worked with one client in a couple of years ago, I guess. And she had recently been promoted from a team leader where she had eight people under her to be in the Department head where she had 50 people in the Department and when she was the team leader she was what I would call like a player coach, right? So she kind of did the same job as the people that reported to her, but her job is to supervise them as well. And so if somebody was behind or they were out she could jump in and do their job. And she did when she got promoted to being the head of the Department of 50, she kept trying to manage that large Department in the same way, and when we started working together she said I’m working 70 hours a week. I’m exhausted. I’m thinking about asking my boss to demote me back to my old role. Oh no, don’t know what to do and I that’s what I said. I was like. Why would you do that? You know, if you keep ability to do this job, why not just learn some skills? An you know you were asking before about some of the patterns that I see. This is actually a very common pattern where people get promoted and they don’t mentally promote themselves. She was still doing the thing from years ago. Yeah she was. And so we really looked at a lot of things that she needed to do differently. One of the things that was happening was and I suppose this probably worked when she was doing it on a scale leading a team of eight is that she believed very strongly and being like. An approachable manager, and underestimating the open door policy so her door was open all day long. And so she had a parade of people coming in constantly asking her to solve their problem. An that probably was doable when she had eight people, but it’s not doable when you have 50. Yeah, she never got her own work done. She was taking it home on the weekends. She didn’t get to spend time with their families, so you know, we just started with some simple things like, OK, I’m I challenge you to close your door 2 hours today. And get your work done and we had to deal with her beliefs and feelings about what that would say about her if she closed her door. Yeah, yeah. What we actually found out, which is really fascinating, but it makes sense. Is that people figured out how to solve their own problems when her daughter is default before was just let’s just go and ask the question, where is if you’re not available. You made to think about it aren’t you? Yeah exactly, she was. She was becoming the path of least resistance when her door was open. Yeah, when her door is closed, maybe they just worked a little harder to figure something out or they asked a colleague and one of the things that I really I really emphasized with her was think about how expensive your time is and think about whether you’re investing your time the best way to get the biggest return on the investment for your company, you know and is doesn’t make sense for you to be solving the problem of somebody who is who makes a fifth. Of what you make, I think that’s a really good listen. Then it’s the listen I’ve actually given to people in my own business working out what they’re worth, and sometimes you just don’t think about that. We must move on to talking about your book, ’cause we’re going to get. We’re going to get to the end of this episode, and we haven’t even talked about the book, so we must. I must move the conversation on now so you’re the author of winning the game of Work, Career, Happiness, and success on your own terms. What a big achievement to write a book. Tell us about this book Terry. Well, you know the book really came out of a blog that I started when I first left my. Corporate job, I just had a lot of thoughts. I was thinking back over lessons that I learned and I just thought it would be good to just, you know, right I I like to write. I’ve been in marketing and I did a lot of writing as a marketer. But somewhere along the line after I’ve been blogging for a couple of years, somebody said you probably have enough. I’m not content for a book, so that got me thinking. And then I came across a book writing program. So I went ahead and decided to write a book about the lessons that I learned. You know, coming into the workplace and I. I’ll mention I didn’t say this earlier, but I’m a first generation college graduate, so there was nobody in my family that could tell me this is how you, you know, nurture, and build a corporate career. You know my dad was the member of a labour union. My mom worked for the post office. You know they had these, you know, blue collar government type jobs right where you didn’t have to figure out how to climb the corporate ladder. So I love you so much. And sorry, yeah they had these, you know. Jobs you just, you know the Union was going to go and negotiate the I’ll just tell you this like quick little thing about when I was at my first job, I remember calling my dad and saying Dad I really want to raise and I don’t know how to ask my boss for a raise and he’s like well I don’t know how to help you because I’ve been in a labour union for my whole career and they take care of that. I was like oh thanks Dad.
Guide me so I really. Let yourself, yeah had to learn it myself and I feel like I was very lucky to have some good mentors along the way. That sort of pulled back the curtain on. This is what’s really going on. This is what really motivates people in the workplace and that opened my eyes up to the fact that I really wasn’t quote unquote playing the game the way that you really needed to to win. In fact, I wasn’t looking at it as a game. I just thought I’ll just come in and work hard. Keep my head down, keep my nose clean and somebody will come along and just notice. Good idea, good job an you know I learned as time went on that you have to build relationships. You have to get clear on you know how you add value for companies. And I tell you there’s really only three ways to add value in a for profit company. You’re helping to make money, save money or reduce risk and you really have to tie everything that you do to those three ways of adding value. If you want to influence. People to see you as valuable within the organization and you know, I. I certainly when I was younger thought like oh, you know I’m just nice and people like me and uncooperative and that’s not enough. Like how does that help make money with the book? It is it kind of aimed at anyone who wants to. ’cause you sort of start a business? Or is it kind of, you know, working up the career ladder, being an employment? Or is it kind of? It seems like it’s got something in there for everyone. Yeah, I think it does have something in there for everyone. You know there’s. There’s sort of my stories and lessons that I learned and what I learned from mentors and things I experienced too. But I also interviewed 11 people about their careers within the book, and I think that you know, people talk about the mistakes they made and the lessons they learn, and some of the people are in corporate type careers, and some people are in entrepreneurial pursuits. There’s at least a couple that started in corporate and left to start their own business. I wanted to interview those people because I thought that it would be. Really motivational and inspirational for people to read about other peoples journeys because a lot of times you know it can be very easy to look at people who are successful and say Oh well, they must have just jumped on the escalator to success and they just you know smoothly Rd to the top of their profession. And that’s never how it happens. You know? There were people told me stories of, you know, getting fired multiple times of sexual harassment of you know, very strange situations. That they lived through, but learned, learned, and were able to go on and do good things after. Sometimes these like kind of weird situations, even for doing this podcast. I don’t think I’ve spoke to one successful person that hasn’t been through trials and tribulations and challenges and knocks and bad health from overwork. I haven’t had a personal on this podcast. Who’s successful that hasn’t gone through some level of challenge and some of the stories are being, you know, absolutely horrific. It sounds to me as well with the book. Kind of, you know. Obviously he was employed which work the ladder. He sounds to me it’s almost like a journey of having been employed. Work your way up this corporate ladder to then almost finding your own feet in your own destiny. And he sounds like it’s quite a nice transition. How the book kind of leads you through that journey. Yeah, into me, I feel like it’s I will refer my clients to various chapters a lot of times because it’s really sort of about Botham, the mind-set shift that’s required to. Focus your energy on more productive ways of working so that you’re not like revving the engine or you know a lot of times I’ll talk about you know people moving through their career. It’s almost like they’re driving with their emergency brake on right that they’re getting to where they need to go, but they’re doing it in a really damaging way to themselves. But yeah, so it’s really like, OK, let’s shift the mind-set so that you can let that emergency brake off and you can flow more easily towards what you’re doing. So it’s shifting the mind-set. But it’s also there’s a lot of very practical tips in how to do things you know, like I talk, I mentioned this little earlier about the leverage points. You know, how do you? Are you really looking at what you need to have done in a clear way so that you’re investing your time wisely?
You know that you’re not. You’re not like concentrating on the wrong things that yeah, you can check those off your To Do List but who cares if that’s not having an impact on the business? He sounds like such a fascinating read. I’ve gotta read a copy of Red a few pages, but you know, it sounds fascinating. We’re coming to the end of our time together. We could talk for ages. And you know, I’d love to unpack this book in even more detail. But what would you say to? What advice would you give to people who may be thinking? You know, I’m just not where I want to be in my career at the moment. Or, you know, I want to start a business. I appreciate this is somewhat generic, but what? What advice would you give to someone but maybe wants to make a positive change but you know they’re not feeling where they want to be right now? You know, I think that if you want to be satisfied with what you do for a living, the first thing to do is really to get in touch with what it is that you want. I see it very often that people they, they’ll come to me and they’ll say, well, I really want to do this, but immediately they’ll start telling me all the reasons why they can’t do it. An I listen stop right there. If you really want to do that on or that right. It doesn’t mean that we that you need to start this very second right, but honour that don’t undermine it before this dream has a chance to sort of take root right, honour it and then separately start thinking about what do I need to do to make that happen. Things your dream lives on its own and the separate thing is coming up with a game plan on how to get there and you know I, I’ve seen some really miraculous and things happen when people on or their desire. I think things happen like almost instantaneously. It’s crazy. It’s quite crazy. You know it’s like don’t kill your baby like let your baby live, you know and then separately figure out how am I going to nurture my baby? I think that’s such great advice and someone described it to me recently its like the editor in your head telling you all the negative reasons and you know shut that editor up. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s such a nice way to end the show Terry. And it’s been lovely talking to you. Where can people go to if they want to connect with you or they want to find out more about the book or indeed purchased the book? Well, the book is available on Amazon Worldwide and it is Amazon UK. Well I wish you all the very best with your future endeavours and with the podcast as well. That was Terry McDougall from Chicago. I’m Jason Connolly until next time this is the career success podcast, goodbye.